# Could You Believe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2000, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576 "2000-01-19T06:28:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![StrTrkr777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@StrTrkr777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StrTrkr777)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2000, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/301 "2000-02-04T20:00:00Z")
Glitch I believe you are right about the basic level. But what does it say beyond that? Look at the words and what Christ says and how the people respond. They are looking for physical stuff. He said they came to him not because of the miracle he had just done (multiplied 5 biscuits and 2 small fish to feed thousands), but because he had given them food. They did not see him as the Son of God, they saw him as a grocery store. He spoke of being the bread of life (that is that which give sustenance to the spirit) and that eating of him will cause them never to hunger again. With their other responses, I am suprised that someone did not try to physically take a bite out of Jesus’ arm. He spoke in physical simple terms for them to understand, yet they still did not see. Meditate on this and see if God will not continue to show you things in this one passage. Don’t get caught up in does my view coincide with Poly’s or Lib’s views. Our views are based on our interpretations of the same book and our life experiences. Believe me I have matured a lot from posting and reading on this board. When I was on AOL, I was more like the old ARG. I did a lot of “God works in mysterious ways” and “because the bible says so”. Just read the bible and let God speak to you. Do not try to do it for yourself. Just let it happen. Good things come to those who wait. Jeffery ---
**Author:** ![Jai\_Pey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a4c791/32.png) [@Jai\_Pey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jai_Pey)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2000, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/302 "2000-02-04T20:04:00Z")
Glitch, you said a couple of posts ago, “Christianity seems very contradictive” from your perspective. From a Christian’s perspective (mine) its one of the reasons I like it, why it rings true. A hundred references in the Bible, I could provide you with those. Jeffrey, great last post there. Regards, Jai Pey ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2000, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/303 "2000-02-04T20:05:00Z")
Glitch Use the context of your own experience. Thank you for doing this as a favor to me, but if you’re weary, take a rest. There’s a lot of tiny little jewels hidden all throughout in there that speak to your experience. See if you can find some of them. ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2000, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/304 "2000-02-04T20:13:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I can see how the acceptance of God might lead you to think that your struggle for strength would be diminished. But it’s not. In a way, it’s a lot like lifting weights. You do all the work, but you know that your muscles wouldn’t be receiving the same benefit if you were just lifting the bar without the weights. God is like the weights. You have to struggle every day to become stronger, but you know that God is what makes you stronger. Does that make any sense?? _I think I’ve managed to confuse even myself._ Ok, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to try to hijack the thread or anything… I’ll go and lurk some more now. Italics mine. Don’t worry I do that too, and I hate it when that happens. The sentence you quoted was a brief, extremely brief, summary of several posts from “The Atheist Religion”. I admit I assumed that everybody in this thread was familiar with those posts. Allow me to explain. I believe that it should be our goal to grow strong from perserverence, and pushing ahead stronger and stronger. The light the inner fire of the human spirit and achieve! Blast through strongest obstacles as if they were paper! OSU! An intervening God diminishes this in direct proportion to the amount he intervenes. Worse yet, God can been seen as intervening if He allows people to believe He may intervene even if He doesn’t. People are living off His spirit and not their own. This diminishes the struggle, the goal and the results. How much was God, and how much was you? Are you strong, or is He? Is it God lighting the inner fire, or your own self will? ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2000, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/305 "2000-02-04T20:18:00Z")
Lib: Rest? Who me? You’re joking right? (program crash) … I’ll be back and respond to the rest. ---
**Author:** ![bigred1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9de0a6/32.png) [@bigred1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bigred1)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2000, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/306 "2000-02-04T20:21:00Z")
Glitch… I only have a couple of minutes here, as I am in the process of installing a new computer and burning one to the ground (boy I wish it would really burn 😛 ) I wanted to quickly respond to this question: > [@](#): > > That sounds accurate to me. Did you ever stop believing? Do you think you at least reached an agnostic state, i.e. "I don’t care "OR “It is impossible to know”? I know I at least hit the agnostic state. I didn’t want to know and I felt it was impossible to know. I don’t think I ever quit believing 100%. I do remember hitting a state of believe He is the “Divine Weasal” though… that one took a lot of heartache to get through. Another quick question: Do you disbelieve 100%? Beth ---
**Author:** ![bigred1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9de0a6/32.png) [@bigred1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bigred1)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2000, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/307 "2000-02-04T20:36:00Z")
Oh yeah… Glitch… I had some time while waiting for the dentist this morning (one proof of the existence of the devil 😉 ) to read through some of the more recent posts… boy will my post this afternoon be long… Just a warning 😃 But then I’ll be gone all weekend too, so I am making up for it in advance. Beth ---
**Author:** ![StrTrkr777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@StrTrkr777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StrTrkr777)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2000, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/308 "2000-02-04T20:44:00Z")
Glitch do not think of God like a protector or big brother that does everything for you and you have to do nothing. God is an ally, a partner, one who helps you be stronger. Think of God as a suit of armor. You have to be physically strong to do battle, but your skin is not strong enough to withstand spears and arrows. The armor that God provides gives you the added strength you need to fight the toughest battles. I do not sit back and say if something good happens God did it and something bad happens either God did it too or blame myself. I must still provide the physical action. God gives me direction. So, when things go well, I realize it is because I listened to God and we worked together. If they go wrong, I should have listened better. Hope that makes a bit of sense. Jeffery ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2000, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/309 "2000-02-04T22:39:00Z")
[whistling sort of mindlessly… eyeballs lobing lazily back and forth…] I promised Gaudere I would trust the CGI. [whistling more vigorously… tacky little kicks at the air…] A promise is a promise. [walking away… note to self, check back later…] ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2000, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/310 "2000-02-04T23:09:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Our views are based on our interpretations of the same book and our > life experiences. You got that right. I am saving this, and next time I proving the subjectivity of theistic morality I am dragging that puppy out. That’ll teach them nasty devils. _insane laughter fading into the distance_ 🙂 🙂 🙂 Jai: > [@](#): > > you said a couple of posts ago, “Christianity seems very contradictive” from your perspective. From a Christian’s perspective (mine) its one of the reasons I like it, why it rings true. Hmm … Lib said the same thing in “The Atheist Religion Part 2”. Some mindless ramblings (it is Lib, you know 😉 … sorry friend, I am in a jabbing mood) about ambiguity about God. Lib: > [@](#): > > Use the context of your own experience. Okay. > [@](#): > > Another quick question: Do you disbelieve 100%? Depends on how strictly you mean that question. Effectively, yes. Strictly speaking, no. Look at it this way, I accept the theory of gravity 100%, even though there is a slim chance it is wrong. “You never know what is around the corner” - Somebody’s Mother. My belief in God is so slim, that it is effectively 0%. The only sliver remaining is what exists on the principle of strict honesty. > [@](#): > > But then I’ll be gone all weekend too, so I am making up for it in advance. Enjoy your adventure. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Glitch do not think of God like a protector or big brother that does everything for you and you have to do nothing. “The Lord is my shepard, I shall not want” Lots of other similar quotes. Plus, we have the divine protection of God toward Israel in the OT. But note, I didn’t say you had to do nothing. Rather, He diminishes the human spirit directly proportional to the amount He intervenes. If He intervenes completely, i.e. you do nothing, than he diminishes the human spirit to 0. > [@](#): > > God gives me direction. So, when things go well, I realize it is because I listened to God and we worked together. If they go wrong, I should have listened better. No offense, but why not supply your own direction? Why do you feel it has to come from God? Can’t you hunt out goodness and good action on your own? I don’t mean that as a flame, but that it exactly my point. The human struggle is glorious because it comes from us. Our pursuit of goodness, with what we can perceive. No access, implicit or explicit to the omniscient will of God. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/311 "2000-02-05T01:01:00Z")
[Moderator Hat: ON] Please please please please – if it doesn’t look like your message is posting, don’t post it another half dozen times! (Hopefully, I’ll have this mess cleaned up soon, but I have kids running around and may not have a chance. If that is the case, just play along and pretend the extras aren’t there.) Glitch, I’m deleting the Part 2 you started, 'cus it was an overall board problem, not a thread problem. * * * David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator [Moderator Hat: OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/312 "2000-02-05T01:08:00Z")
Ha ha! Everybody’s going, “Hey, me! Me! Over here! Listen to mine, Glitch!” And Glitch is just like, kick, parry, parry, punch, spin, kick… 😃 Y’okay, Glitch? I’ll jump on “your side” if you like! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/313 "2000-02-05T01:27:00Z")
Hey, it wasn’t my fault. God told me to do it. Actually, what was bizarre was I could reply to other threads and not this one. Then I noticed that the post count on this thread went up suddenly (and I knew my goose was cooked), but I couldn’t see the posts, hence I figured the thread was messed up. Sorry David … I know trust the cgi. ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/314 "2000-02-05T01:32:00Z")
[[Originally posted by Jai Pey in “Could Tou Believe? (part 2)”]] Hey Glitch, I’m not sure about the human spirit being basically good, is all. Although strictly speaking, as a Christian, I believe we were created good… I guess it comes down to choices, hey? I know there’s choices I made on my own and others I instinctively knew somehow what to do and others I was totally lost in. And I’m still here. Maybe I woulda been anyway? Sure. Could I believe? Yeah in the end I could… but believing and living it is two different things. When I knew I believed, “I had no choice but live it” … not out of fear of divine retribution if I chose to do something different, but becuz I was fundamentally changed. Now, I ain’t perfect, either. But I’m happier than I was. James Taylor sung, in a song “There’s a song that they sing when they take to the highway / A song that they sing when they take to the sea /A song that they sing 'bout their home in the sky / Maybe you can believe it if it helps you to sleep / but singing works just fine for me” : This is the usual line I hear about Christians and their belief, from agnostics and others. Who knows? I won’t propose Pascal’s wager to ya, I;ve seen it ripped apart too much. Why that one little, less than 1% belief, for you? Regards, Jai Pey =-=-=-=-=-= [[Originally posted by Jai Pey in “Could You Believe (part 2)?”]] Re: Contradictions… Someone once said (I can’t make the quote) that Christianity is one of the few religions where God came to humankind, not vice versa (_Go_ and find out the sound of one hand clapping). It was arguably (I’ve seen this in religious studies courses) that Christianity was one of the greatest aids in the cause for women’s liberation, and I mean early christianity. Contradictions and paradoxical logic seems to grab the human imagination anyhow. Servant-King. Wisdom-Foolishness. I’d say you could find a paradoxical figure in most world cultures and religions. Dead-men walking as it were. My personal favorite… when we’re weak, we’re strong. (One of Paul’s letters) ANyhow, enough religion. time to listen to CBC radio. Regards, Jai Pey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/315 "2000-02-05T02:13:00Z")
Day Two: Internal Analysis or as StrTrkr would call it a “Level 3 Diagnostic of My Internal Software Protocols”. 🙂 Re: The Suicide Core I thought you may be interested in knowing that I have counter-reasoned the suicide core theory. The key is the last moment before death. It is the Spirit of Osu! that lives there. All things flowed from THAT moment, and not the preceeding moments of despair. Literally, I believe the Spirit of Osu! saved me, and so quite logically I pursued that as a founding principle. This doesn’t mean that suicide is not a deep part of me. The Creation Principles flows from it perfectly. Since I see myself as generally a positive person, this outlook makes more sense. The Spirit of Osu! is more than capable of turning death (suicide as a deep principle) into life (creation principle). Re: Do I want to believe? The answer I think remains yes; however, now that I have removed this dark cloud of the deep despair I have experienced these past few days (didn’t I tell you … DELUSION and ILLUSION are the killers, avoid them like death itself), I can see things more clearly. (btw, I am still moderately depressed, which isn’t unusual for me, so if I seem that way don’t worry, whenever I am thinking about my suicide attempt I get a little depressed but it is no big deal). I realize what I am about to say is very my in contradiction to Christian philosophy and could even be considered blasphemy against God, but I need and want only one thing from God. I want what I feel He should have given me then. Until that hurdle is covered, I don’t think I could, or even should, make any serious attempt towards being a Christian. As for reading the Bible and such. The answer is a firm, but polite… no. I went down that path already. It led to my near destruction. I am willing to make reasonable attempts to find God, but I will not open myself up like I did before. I don’t think I should have to. I am the one who suffered most from this little test in my life. I see no reason why I should pursue the EXACT same path again. I mean imagine such objectively! Imagine a person hooked on drugs and almost dies … if they sobered up would you consider them the highest of fools for turning back to drugs?!? Of course. I am not going to turn back to theology. Yes, I am sure this will be interpreted as fighting God. It is perhaps accurate. I am only a stupid, frail human. My experiences determine who I am, and God choose what those experiences would be. If He didn’t want me to be in a fighting mood towards Him, He shouldn’t have set me up for the fall. I believe I do have free will, but as with many Christians I see life’s event (assuming a god) as challenges. With my suicide attempt being so critica, I can see no reason not to conclude that it was a test (again, assuming a god). As with the post before, I am not a test case. I do not enjoy being put through trials and tribulations for the seeming joy of it. If things hadn’t of turned out the way they did, perhaps I wouldn’t feel this. Again, to use the previous example, if I had of dropped the sword without injury that would be something so very different than what I went through. God knows where I am. He knows who I am. He knows what I need. He knows what I want. He knows the door is still barely open and I welcome Him to come through on His own accord anytime He pleases. He is welcome to hold me responsible for my attitude and sacriligious manner. If He finds it offensive and I have any capability to fight Him, I will do so. If I cannot fight Him in any manner, I will gladly walk into Hell to be apart from Him. My apologies if this offends anybody, I don’t mean it to, but I really do think I was terribly wronged. I say this as my only means of defense of self. Without this reasoning, I think I would go mad and I would surely die. And now onto Lib’s John 6. ---
**Author:** ![bigred1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9de0a6/32.png) [@bigred1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bigred1)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/316 "2000-02-05T02:25:00Z")
Glitch… I don’t think I have mentioned this before… but with the spirit of truth and honesty through which you have posted… I am not in anyway offended. I find it above and beyond admirable that you are still even willing to search. I do truly hope that you find peace outside of depression. Now… did you get my email? 😉 I am still working on “THE” post. Beth ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/317 "2000-02-05T02:27:00Z")
Hmmm…we’ve been discussing a monolithic God here, and Jesus has been brought into the picture a few times. Remember the Trinity? The whole paradoxical idea of one God with three personalities? Glitch may be very interested in the basic concept of the Holy Spirit. He is:[ul][li]the Advocate, the one who argues for you, who speaks God’s mind to you and _your mind to God_. If, in origin, Satan ([/li] [http://flowerkitty.tripod.com/smile/devil.gif](http://flowerkitty.tripod.com/smile/devil.gif) , not Brian) was God’s D.A., the accuser (_shaitan_), then the Holy Spirit is your own defense attorney.[li]the Strengthener. Most Bibles use the term Comforter, which is King Jameseth, but it literally means “he who strengthens with”, and the idea of cuddly comforting has replaced the idea of giving strength in the word’s meaning. But it is the Holy Spirit who gives strength, the push to keep persevering.[/ul][/li] BTW, somebody with a Bible with concordance handy please look up the passage where Paul compares the Christian’s life to an athlete running a race and post the reference. Glitch might enjoy reviewing the metaphor there as well. ---
**Author:** ![Navigator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4af34b/32.png) [@Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navigator)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/318 "2000-02-05T02:46:00Z")
Call Mr. Bibleman 🙂 A couple, of quotes from 2 Timothy, a letter Paul wrote to Timothy while he wasin prison in Rome. This is one of the last letters Paul wrote. **2 Timothy 2:4-6** > [@](#): > > No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs–he wants to please his commanding officer. Similarly, if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not receive the victor’s crown unless he competes according to the rules. The hardworking farmer should be the first to receive a share of the crop, **2 Timothy 4:6-8** > [@](#): > > For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day–and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. This is one of my favorite epistles, and taking just a taste of it, really doesn’t do it justice. So pick up a Gideons for yourself, and read it in context. 🙂 Peace. * * * † Jon † Phillipians 4:13 ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/319 "2000-02-05T02:52:00Z")
John 6 & Suicide I’ll make my relations to my own personal experience at the bottom. > [@](#): > > So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? > > … > > "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him whosent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. \*1 - The followers wanted miracles, Jesus was telling them to just believe in Him. \*1a - See bottom. The passage is extremely repetious on this. Jesus says time and time again, “No, no, no, just believe in me.” > [@](#): > > “Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.” \*2 - Forget about the real world (the food that spoils), and concern yourself with the world after (the food of eternal life). > [@](#): > > “I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” \*3 - Of course, Jesus predicts here His salvation sacrifice. So to eat his flesh and drink his blood is to accept his sacrifice. > [@](#): > > They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, `I came down from heaven’?” > > “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” _(Editorial note: Yeah, you tell 'em!)_ Jesus answered. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. \*4 - see bottom. > [@](#): > > On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” > > Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this _(Editorial Note: The disciples really were a bunch of ingrates)_, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! > > “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” \*5 - Prediction of resurrection (ascend to where he was before) \*6 - “This is hard teaching” KJV and RSV both have this as “This is hard saying”, I’ll assume it translate best modernly as “teaching”. My first thought is, the disciples are real dopes. Hard?!? Are they kidding? You have Jesus himself in front of you giving you step by step instructions on salvation. Us poor modern people have to work with a multiply translated 2000 year old book! Hard teaching indeed. My second thought is, they don’t have the foggiest clue what he is talking about. I mean he knows he is going to die. They don’t. They don’t know yet about the sacrifice. So, it would makes things a little more confusing. I mean at this point one could be wondering if maybe we should literally be gnawing on Jesus’ leg. As I realized this I actually started laughing. I mean it is really really funny. I can just picture the minds and faces of the disciples wondering what this guy is talking about. I am still chuckling. It really cracks me up. I think it may be the funniest thing I have ever read in the Bible. I mean stop and think about it. They have NO idea he is going to sacrifice himself! It is hilarious! This is too much … ROFL. 🙂 > [@](#): > > He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.” \*7 - Free will violation and grossly unfair I might add. RSV has it as “granted by the Father”. Same deal. Reeks of the Divine Weasal. “Hmmm, yes, you can come to me now, but not you. Not your turn yet, get back in line.” Not a pleasant thought. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Okay, tying it all together (I am still chuckling). \*1 - I wanted a miracle. God/Jesus just wanted me to believe in Him. As covered, I believe I did, but it wasn’t sufficient to pull me out of my nose dive because I believe in the distinct possiblity of a God who hated me. \*1a - However, “he who comes to me I will never drive away.” I was most certainly driven away. I may not have specifically ever gone to Jesus, but I always had a hard time understanding the trilogy. My prayers were 90% to God, 10% to Jesus. None the less, there is little doubt that I was giving myself to God to little avail. \*4 & \*7 - Free will violation. This is very concerning. If I accept this as truth and an omniscient/omnipotent God, then God not only did God sent me into the lions den, He did so without arming me with a sword and shield! If He hadn’t given me permission (for lack of a better word) to come to Him, what was the whole thing about? _Entering Flame Retardant Dogi_ I know I am going to get burned for this one. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/320 "2000-02-05T02:56:00Z")
Glitch said: > [@](#): > > Re: Do I want to believe? > > The answer I think remains yes I know it is that way for me, as well. Do I _want_ to believe that there is a supreme being who will grant eternal life in a heaven? Heck, yes! I would love to think that my grandfather, who is right now dying, will live on somewhere and I will be able to see him again (along with those loved ones who have already died). It would give me great comfort to think that. But I can’t. Because I don’t think it is true. Because I have seen no evidence that it is true. I can’t believe something just because I _want_ it to be true. So I will say goodbye to my grandfather, knowing that I will never see him again, and he will never see me again. And thinking about the fact that someday the same will happen to me. And hating it. But life goes on. It’s the only one we have, so I’d better make the most of it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576.md?page=17)