# Could You Believe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2000, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576 "2000-01-19T06:28:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/321 "2000-02-05T03:04:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I do truly hope that you find peace outside of depression. Interesting thought. Peace. I’ll respond to that later. I need to think about it. > [@](#): > > Now… did you get my email? Yes, it was … long. I need to read it again. At first, I didn’t realize it was a log from an chat. I thought it was a diary or something. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/322 "2000-02-05T03:13:00Z")
Jai Pey: > [@](#): > > Why that one little, less than 1% belief, for you? See my post on page 5 (02-02-2000 01:43 PM, not the earlier ones on the same page) for the prime reason. ---
**Author:** ![bigred1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9de0a6/32.png) [@bigred1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bigred1)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/323 "2000-02-05T05:25:00Z")
Ok… so I blew it and didn’t get to post ☹ Oh well. I did manage to burn a PC to the ground, reinstall it, and get win98 to behave on it… more proof that there is a God and a Satan 😉 I also decided to actually make car ahd hotel reservations for my weekend adventure 😛 Have a good weekend all. Glitch … you’re still in my prayers 😃 Beth Oh… and if anyone wants it… I have made a Word document out of this thread… just let me know if you want a copy. (printed out it is about 200 pages btw) ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/324 "2000-02-05T16:50:00Z")
Beth: Feel free to send me the … uhh … document o’ doom. ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/325 "2000-02-05T20:15:00Z")
Lib: You have me wondering. What is your take on John 6? ---
**Author:** ![StrTrkr777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@StrTrkr777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StrTrkr777)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/326 "2000-02-05T20:40:00Z")
Glitch, I am not going to flame you and I think God will hold off on it for now. I think you are going on the right track with most of your analysis. I also see where you are coming from in your analysis of how it fits with your situation. You said that you do not want to study the bible anymore. However, you have read and given your interpretation of John 6. If you will, would you get into a quite place where you can think and meditate. Just ask God simply to speak to you as you read this passage again. Read it slowly and then consider what it says to you. Consider it in relation to your situation some more. I know what it says but see if some other deeper meanings come to your mind. Glitch wrote: > [@](#): > > \*1 - I wanted a miracle. God/Jesus just wanted me to believe in Him. As covered, I believe I did, but it wasn’t sufficient to pull me out of my nose dive because I believe in the distinct possiblity of a God who hated me. However, if you look at the situation that was going on, you see that after they had seen a miracle, they still asked what miracles he would do to prove himself. He could have said, “What do you call what I just did.” Please do not flame me, but could the miracle he did for you be the fact that you did not kill yourself? Just a possibility. Glitch then wrote: > [@](#): > > \*1a - However, “he who comes to me I will never drive away.” I was most certainly driven away. I may not have specifically ever gone to Jesus, but I always had a hard time understanding the trilogy. My prayers were 90% to God, 10% to Jesus. None the less, there is little doubt that I was giving myself to God to little avail. It does not matter, IMHO, whether you prayed to God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit takes your prayers to God. If you were driven away, then why are you still persuing this? Just curious. Glitch then wrote: > [@](#): > > \*4 & \*7 - Free will violation. This is very concerning. If I accept this as truth and an omniscient/omnipotent God, then God not only did God sent me into the lions den, He did so without arming me with a sword and shield! If He hadn’t given me permission (for lack of a better word) to come to Him, what was the whole thing about? [Inigo Montoya voice] I do not think it means what you think it means.[/Inigo Montoya voice] This is saying, IMHO, that you do not come to God or Jesus by any physical means, but by the Grace of God. So without God’s Grace, which is a free gift for the asking, you can not come to God. Keep trying. You are getting their my son. Jeffery ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/327 "2000-02-06T01:16:00Z")
Glitch: [This got too big for notepad, so I’m breaking it in two.] **John 6, part I** > [@](#): > > Lib: You have me wondering. What is your take on John 6? Okay. Here’s my take. > [@](#): > > When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?” Now, I hope to think that if I had been cavorting around with Jesus for a while, it would have dawned on me, as it did on the twelve, that this guy was something special. I hope to think that I might come up with something better to ask Him than the equivalent of, “Yo, cuz, whussup?” Of course, it’s easy to whisper advice from a distance. I too might have become all wrapped up in thinking that maybe Jesus was on something like a campaign for messiah, where belief is a sort of “vote” that He is the One. But I hope not. > [@](#): > > Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. I always pay extra special attention when Jesus starts a sentence with, “I tell you the truth,” or “In all truth I say to you,” that sort of thing. Because, when you think about it, what better source is there for truth than the Truth Himself. I mean, it is kind of redundant when He says He is telling the truth because clearly, if He is God, then all His words are true. So I can account for it only as some sort of punctuation. A sort of, “Listen up!” And in this instance, what He is drawing that special attention to is the notion that _miraculous signs lead no one to God_. Not ultimately. What leads people to God is when He fills them with nourishment. They looked for Jesus, not because of any miracles He did — hell, miracles are a dime a dozen. They looked for Jesus because He’d just filled their bellies with bread and fish. > [@](#): > > “Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.” Here, He advises us to concern ourselves, not with the natural world, but with the _real_ world, the spiritual one in which we live our _eternal_ lives. In the natural world, our lives are short, and we are nourished by atoms. In the real world, our lives are eternal, and we are nourished by God. This is not for some “afterlife”. The spirit, the real world, the real life, is ongoing right now. It doesn’t start when our bodies die, but when our spirits are reborn. And they are reborn the moment we believe. Eternal life doesn’t kick in when our brains die; it kicks in when our spirits come to life. > [@](#): > > Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Well, at least their questions are getting better. Certainly, it is apropos to ask of Jesus what it is that God requires we do. Personally, I would be braced for hearing something quite impossible, or if not impossible, at least unpalatable. Maybe I’d have to follow some commandments, at least some of which, no doubt, would cramp my style, and some of which, inevitably, were beyond my ability to resist temptation. Or maybe I’d have to perform some periodic ritual, some ceremony, or some sort of “field work”, like going door to door and witnessing. Or something. > [@](#): > > Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” But I would hardly have been braced for this. I’m like, “Yes? And the catch?” I mean, what’s the punch line here? The _work_ of God? To _believe_? That ain’t work. That’s too easy. [as irony condenses on the words… I guess He did say that His yoke was light, that His burden was easy.] So they asked him, “What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” And now _this_ inexplicable question. The man had just filled all their bellies with fish and bread brought out of thin air (bread from heaven). We all had just spent the morning in dancing and celebration over the miracle we’d seen. He just finished telling us that that He Himself, His very existence, His incarnation, fills us up, that no one comes to Him for miracles, but for nourishment. > [@](#): > > Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” Often, we look, not to God, but to man to nourish us. But when we do this, we get the same kind of nourishment that we get in the natural world. The kind that wears off overnight and leaves us hungry again tomorrow. The Christians you looked to for guidance were feeding you _their_ bread, not His. He offers His bread directly, without any intermediaries. He walks beside you one on one, not ahead of you with an entourage and a press agent who gives you periodic briefings and answers (some of) your questions. He is “the bread of God”. > [@](#): > > “Sir,” they said, “from now on give us this bread.” Like you, I think there are some really funny lines in this passage, and this is one of them. I mean, you talk about dense. Well, you know the old saying, you can lead 'em to water, but… > [@](#): > > Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. Now, here is something vitally important. Jesus has just been saying that people who are chasing after genies and magicians (to see miracles) are not the people who are looking for Him. They are people who are looking for something else. The people looking for Him are the people who are hungry and thirsty for righteousness. They are the people who are looking for justice, not sorcery. They are the people who seek mercy, not spectacle. They are the people who want meaning, not proof. Those who want proof are looking for atoms. The spirit is not made of atoms; it is made of the will of God. Even though they’ve seen Him, Jesus says, they do not believe in Him. They want Him, even now, to raise his crossed arms and blink Jerusalem into submission. They want Him to twitch His nose and summon up heralders and angels. They are as clueless as a valley girl in a mosque. > [@](#): > > "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. God’s will is that we believe, and that He cherish. He will reject no one who believes in Him. Not in some image of Him offered by those who think they have Him in a box. But in Him. We always go after what we really want in our heart of hearts. You probably hear from people all time, “Boy, I’d really like to get into the martial arts.” Well, if that’s true, then what’s stopping them? When our heart is set on something, nothing keeps us from at least the quest for it. Whatever you treasure most, that is what your heart seeks out ceaselessly. A man is positively _consumed_ by the thing he treas ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/328 "2000-02-06T01:18:00Z")
Glitch: **John 6, part II** > [@](#): > > At this the [Pharisees] began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, `I came down from heaven’?” Well, that’s because politicians treasure clout. Now, if Jesus would show some clout, you know, sling some lightning bolts, turn the moon to blood, that sort of thing, then these guys might believe in Him and grant him their “vote” of belief. But some local guy from Nazareth? Some guy who doesn’t even have a machete, much less an army? > [@](#): > > “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. Look carefully and discerningly at this. He isn’t saying here that God draws some and not others, but merely that, _were it not for God_, not even one of us could come. God is not **pro** scribing but **pre** scribing. Our salvation is His grace, not our work. It is not that He opens some hearts and not others, but that He comes into only those hearts that freely open to Him. Each of us is drawn to Him, but not each of us _treasures_ being drawn to Him. Those of us who do treasure it open our hearts. Intellectual belief only takes us to the brink of faith. We cannot have faith until we open our hearts. And when we do, God fills us with faith. > [@](#): > > "No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. There’s that truth thing again. People criticize C. S. Lewis for drawing a false dilemma, but the criticism is overwrought, in my opinion. Assuming the scriptures are reasonably faithful representations of what Jesus said (and I believe they are, especially in John), then it is entirely reasonable to hold a man who keeps emphasizing that He is dispensing truth to be liar if he is _not_ dispensing truth. Notice too that Jesus, almost anally particular about His grammar, says _has_ everlasting life, not _will have_. > [@](#): > > "I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. There is only one context, as I see it, in which this claim is not absolutely bizarre. Only if He truly is God is He the Bread of Life, because God is the nourishment for our spirits. > [@](#): > > “I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” The real Bread. The true Bread. Not the molecules in wheat. The real Life. The true Life. Not the entropy of dying cells. > [@](#): > > Then the [Pharisees] began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Well, there you go. On another occasion, He said of them, “They look and look, but do not see. They listen and listen, but do not hear.” > [@](#): > > Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. “I tell you the truth,”. Again! The real Flesh. The real Blood. Not this fake stuff you see with your brain. > [@](#): > > "For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. When spirit is nourished by spirit, there is a communion, a symbiosis. Both are one. > [@](#): > > “This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” Miracles fade. Spiritual nourishment is eternal. > [@](#): > > He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. To me, _this_ is the funniest line in the whole passage. What bizarre things for a man to be saying about Himself in a synagogue! > [@](#): > > On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” It really _was_ hard. For them. They had no notion of spiritual things. You can imagine them thinking, ‘Eat his flesh? Drink his blood? What is he preaching, vampirism?’ and very hastily making their excuses why they must leave. > [@](#): > > Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! Another funny line. > [@](#): > > “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” The spiritual world is the real one. The natural world is meaningless. It is merely the context within which we make moral choices, choices that are driven by the will of our spirits. His words are the Spirit and the Life. Those who do not believe simply do not recognize His words as the Spirit and the Life. The Spirit and the Life are not what they treasure. Therefore, they do not believe. People can change over time. What we might not once have treasured, we might treasure today. And what we might not treasure today, we might held in great esteem in days past. Search your heart for what you were seeking those many years ago, and what it was the so-called Christians were giving you. You should have left them alone and stayed with your karate, because it was what you treasured. And God can be found in a karate dojo as easily as He can in this or that church building. He is the Spirit. He is the Love Everlasting. He is not in any box. > [@](#): > > For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. Okay, I can hear you, Glitch. “Free will violation! Free will violation!” This can be easily over-read. Bring Ockham’s Razor to bear here. There are no penumbral implications, no interstices. It simply means that He was able to sort of size up who was with Him and who wasn’t from the first time He met them. Not because He told their fortunes, but because their hearts told their stories. He simply could read their hearts with divine perfection. As a martial arts teacher, you might be able to tell, upon first meeting a student, whether or not his heart is in it. You might not be right all the time, but that’s only because your judgement is not perfect. If you were to apply perfect judgement, however, as He would, then you would read the heart of every student faithfully and true. [quote] He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”\\ **Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/329 "2000-02-06T05:09:00Z") > [@](#): > > You said that you do not want to study the bible anymore. However, you have read and given your interpretation of John 6. As a favor to Lib, sure. It don’t consider it studying. > [@](#): > > If you will, would you get into a quite place where you can think and meditate. Just ask God simply to speak to you as you read this passage again. Read it slowly and then consider what it says to you. Consider it in relation to your situation some more. I know what it says but see if some other deeper meanings come to your mind. This is studying, to which, I must politely refuse. The truth is I have been down that path before. I know where it leads. If you feel that there is wisdom in this passage, by all means, as you have done, point it out to me. I am always willing to listen. I would consider that an attempt by God to contact me through His people. > [@](#): > > Please do not flame me, but could the miracle he did for you be the fact that you did not kill yourself? Just a possibility. I would never flame you. I despise those who cloud themselves with delusion, and theists who use theology as a club. I would never flame an intelligent and civil person. I accept the possibility. However, consider this in return. Facts: 1. I do not consider my life saving action as a miracle. My perception of the event clearly suggests that it was revulsion towards God that saved me. Not exactly, your standard holy miracle. 2. God had it in His power to perform the life saving miracle at anytime, even if I wouldn’t recognize it, as such. 3. The event left me spiritually scarred so as to be unable to sincerely believe. I will , for the moment, ignore all other side effects of the event. 4. As stated, earlier, perhaps I would feel differently if I hadn’t actually started to cut flesh, blood and muscle. So, you understand the nature of the God you believe in better than me. What action would you say is logically consistent with the nature of the God you believe in, assuming that He has to choose a miracle that I won’t simply discount later. a) Dropping the sword without injury, leaving myself open to possible salvation later. b) Cutting into my body, stopping, withdrawing the sword and dropping it, leaving me unable to sincerly believe in anything other than the Divine Weasel as the possible god. I don’t intend that with hostility (curse the internet for not conveying emotion). I just don’t want to answer the question for you (Lib, Poly and anybody else feel free to answer too). If I assume that saving my life was a miracle, can you explain why it occured after cutting into my body? Answering, this is crucial for me to accept it as a miracle. > [@](#): > > If you were driven away, then why are you still persuing this? Good question. Because I am a fool, maybe? 😉 Seriously, I value truth. I recognize that there are flaws and holes in my theories on this and other theological matters. I am open-minded enough to pursue them. Every now and then I will try chi exercises. I will try to move objects or break boards with my mind/spirit. Some would see such as a complete waste. I don’t. I learn a lot from trying. The same is true for pursuing this matter. I learn about theology, I learn about other people, and I learn about myself. > [@](#): > > \*4 & \*7 - Free will violation. This is very concerning. If I accept this as truth and an omniscient/omnipotent God, then God not only did God sent me into the lions den, He did so without arming me with a sword and shield! If He hadn’t given me permission (for lack of a better word) to come to Him, what was the whole thing about? “He didn’t fall. Inconceivable!” > [@](#): > > [Inigo Montoya voice] I do not think it means what you think it means.[/Inigo Montoya voice] > [@](#): > > This is saying, IMHO, that you do not come to God or Jesus by any physical means, but by the Grace of God. So without God’s Grace, which is a free gift for the asking, you can not come to God. Are you saying I didn’t accept this gift, in that moment? I know theologically speaking it cannot be God at fault, so I must have done something wrong. Perhaps this has been answered already (I tried to find it but really didn’t find a specific answer), what exactly would you say I did wrong while crying out to God? Feel free to assume that anything I have told you is correct or mistaken. If you wish to assume something I said is mistaken, please just specify it. (Lib, Poly and any other please answer this as well, I would value the feedback). ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/330 "2000-02-06T05:34:00Z")
> [@](#): > > And in this instance, what He is drawing that special attention to is the notion that miraculous signs lead no one to God. Not ultimately. What leads people to God is when He fills them with nourishment. They looked for Jesus, not because of any miracles He did — hell, miracles are a dime a dozen. They looked for Jesus because He’d just filled their bellies with bread and fish. Your point is well taken. Not as a “counter”, but simply as a matter of fact, I use the term “miracle” slightly differently when I say it. I would consider having a person’s heart filled with the Holy Spirit to be a miracle. As I died, I was not necessarily looking for a miracle akin to the loaves and fishes. I just wanted to point that out. > [@](#): > > it kicks in when our spirits come to life. Out of curiousity, do you think I am spiritually dead, in particular, do you think my spirit is not alive? Be honest. You won’t hurt my feelings if you say something negative. If you think it is alive, how do you account for this from a theological perspective? > [@](#): > > The Christians you looked to for guidance were feeding you their bread, not His. He offers His bread directly, without any intermediaries. He walks beside you one on one, not ahead of you with an entourage and a press agent who gives you periodic briefings and answers (some of) your questions. This sounds logical. How do you interpret my pleas as I died in relation to this? > [@](#): > > Jesus has just been saying that people who are chasing after genies and magicians (to see miracles) are not the people who are looking for Him. They are people who are looking for something else. The $64,000 question then is. What do you think I was looking for? I am expressed what I thought I was looking for, and it wasn’t, IMO, a genie or magician. I have never asked God to perform any magic tricks for me (okay, I have but only when I was real angry), but not then, IMO. Re-read the last few paragraphs, and as a theological expert (I consider you to be very wise) offer your analysis based on what was said. Again, feel free to assume parts of what I said (or imply) were mistaken. If you can just list them #1 This is what you said. This is what I think it means. #2 etc. I would very much appreciate this. > [@](#): > > God’s will is that we believe, and that He cherish. He will reject no one who believes in Him. See question above. > [@](#): > > You probably hear from people all time, “Boy, I’d really like to get into the martial arts.” Well, if that’s true, then what’s stopping them? Boy, do I ever. Actually, the most common question I get is “What would you do if _fill\_in\_the\_blank_?” where the blank is some oddball scenario, like my personal favorite, “you were fighting a 400 lb judo expert wearing body armor?” (I would love to know where that one came from). My answer run. Like a 400 lb guy in body armor can outrun me. > [@](#): > > But some local guy from Nazareth? Some guy who doesn’t even have a machete, much less an army? What? He didn’t even have a machete, what kind of joke is this. Of all the … uhhh … never mind. 😉 (just kidding of course) "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him [/quote] > [@](#): > > Look carefully and discerningly at this. He isn’t saying here that God draws some and not others, but merely that, were it not for God, not even one of us could come. > [@](#): > > Notice too that Jesus, almost anally particular about His grammar, I don’t know about that. It says “unless the Father … draws him”. This implies an actual act by God (the act of drawing or pulling). Why imply an act from God if he really mean to say “the Father draws on you all to come to me”? If there is an act of God required, then it is safe to assume that there are periods of life that are pre-drawn and post-drawn. > [@](#): > > Intellectual belief only takes us to the brink of faith. We cannot have faith until we open our hearts. And when we do, God fills us with faith. Which I cannot do, not again. See my questions to Jeffery above. > [@](#): > > It really was hard. For them. They had no notion of spiritual things. Really? Before Jesus there was no notion of spirituality? Is this what you meant? > [@](#): > > For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. > > Okay, I can hear you, Glitch. “Free will violation! Free will violation!” Free will violation! Free … never mind. 🙂 > [@](#): > > The overall lesson in this passage, as I see it, is not just believe, but believe in Him. In what He really is. The Bread of Life. The Spirit of Truth. Seek that and we will find that. Seek something else and we will find something else. See my questions above. 1. What do you think I did wrong? 2. What do you think I was seeking? (Please use the list example I gave, if possible) Lib, thank you very much for taking the time to post all of that. I appreciate it, my friend. ---
**Author:** ![UppityWoman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ee7513/32.png) [@UppityWoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UppityWoman)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/331 "2000-02-06T06:20:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Glitch: > \*\* See my questions above. > > 1. What do you think I did wrong? > 2. What do you think I was seeking? (Please use the list example I gave, if possible) > \*\* I’ve been following this subject all along. Even though I’m new here, I would like to say that I think the courage you’ve shown, both in your past actions and in your discussing them here are remarkable, Glitch. Like many of the posters here, I find myself very angry at the self-described Christians who were around you at the time of your crisis. If you are not angry at them, good. It would serve no useful purpose. I do hope they learned something from the situation, though. With regard to your questions, above, I have a question for you, if you don’t mind. What could you possibly have done differently that would have been better? You opened yourself in good faith not only to Scripture, but to people who professed to know God’s mind and will, to church, to the Holy Spirit. Your determination and willingness led you to complete despair when you felt you weren’t “getting it”. I understand why you wouldn’t want to do it again. You did it well the first time. Why would you believe that there is any reason to expect a different result from trying again? Further, you have obviously taken the experience to heart and demanded of yourself that you get everything possible out of the experience. You are not blaming anyone else for it and you are not wallowing in it. You moved on and made positives out of a truly tragic experience, so even the experience, horrific as it was, could not be called “wasted” or “bad”. It is my opinion (which will not be popular here) that if people are following their own path; their own heart, if you will, with honesty and honour, that they are following the path to God and with God. Every person is unique and so, too, can your path be unique. No one can say, definitively, what your path “should” be except you, as long as you are steadfast in your determination. It seems obvious that you are. You were seeking God. That’s what you’ve said and I see no reason for that to be in question. So, again, I ask: What do you think you could have done differently, at that time, to have improved that situation? ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/332 "2000-02-06T19:48:00Z")
> [@](#): > > What could you possibly have done differently that would have been better? Depends on what you mean. In relation to the entire event as a whole, or with regards to my actual suicide attempt. With regards to the entire event, a few things come to mind: 1. Hammerfist the 3 stooges into oblivion. Just kidding. 2. Reject what they were telling me, and look for truth on my own. In my defense; however, theism was relatively new to me, I had no real reason to highly doubt what they were saying. The 3 stooges perhaps, but two ministers? Had I been a theist for any significant time, with more experience perhaps this is what I would have done. 3. Overpower despair with the Spirit of Osu! Easier said than done, of course. The Spirit of Osu! was not at its peak in my life at that time, because I had lost it during the year long challenge. With regards to the suicide attempt by itself, I see nothing that I could have done differently in a theological sense, based on my feelings and knowledge of the time. What do you think, UppityWoman? What do you think I could have done differently? ---
**Author:** ![UppityWoman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ee7513/32.png) [@UppityWoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UppityWoman)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/333 "2000-02-06T20:05:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Glitch: > \*\* > What do you think, UppityWoman? What do you think I could have done differently?\*\* Based on what you’ve written in this thread, I don’t see that you could have done anything differently (better) than you did. Reject others’ ideas and look for truth on your own? To my mind, you were looking for truth on your own. Looking on your own doesn’t mean disregarding what other people say. Since you were, by your own description, opening yourself fully to the quest of understanding God through Christianity, I don’t think you could have done anything differently. It is a shame that the people around you at the time were who they were, but that is who was around. I went to Mass this morning and you came to mind as I looked at the Crucifix. The chest wound put there by the lance stood out to me. I haven’t figured out what that means to me yet, but I’ll be thinking about it. The Homily today was about Epiphany. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/334 "2000-02-06T20:19:00Z")
Glitch: I’m with Uppity on this. I can’t list what you did and say that you did this or that wrong. I don’t think you did _anything_ wrong. You were hoo-dooed. You were hoodwinked by con men. But did the victim of a rape do anything wrong? I suppose if you pressed me, I might say that, like SOME victims of rape, you MIGHT have let down your guard a bit. The people who tried to murder you were like lurkers in a parking garage, waiting for a careless guy to walk by so they could grab him and butt-fuck him. You didn’t do anything particularly wrong except for attributing to God things that God did not do. But if a list will help you, then I will make a list. 😉 * * * 1. “At about 10 months, I [wouldn’t] quite have called myself a theist, but probably as close as I ever came. I believed that there was a god, I just wasn’t entirely sure of his nature, or why we didn’t seem as close as I had expected or told we would. Still I was determined to fight on!” Like I explained just above here, He is not “a god”. If you sought “a god”, that is _exactly_ what you found. Now, how does a man find something whose very nature eludes him? What on earth would a private detective do in this circumstance? I mean, think about it. 🙂 “Well, I need you to find something for me. I don’t know if it’s animal, vegetable, or mineral, but it’s something that some people have said they know something about. Maybe you could ask some of them?” 🙂 So, no _wonder_ you weren’t close, and never felt any kind of personal relationship with God. You found instead a god that some morons had told you about. And like any man with your high character and brave heart, you kind of went “Blah.” I would have gone, “Blah” too. I would have felt about as close to it as a North Korean feels close to freedom. My Lord is not a god. He is God, the Love Everlasting, the Mighty Counselor, the Heavenly Father. He is the Source of all goodness. He is made of Love. He created the whole material world as a context for us, free moral agents whom He also created. My God is Spirit. He is not derived from myths; rather, dim and feable portraits of myths are drawn from misinterpretations about him by weak minds. * * * 1. “He said, a lot of my inner fire was gone, and I was too complacent, too stagnant.” This should have been your first clue. God is neither complacent nor stagnant. He is the God of the Living, not a god for the dead. God **lights up** the spirit of a man. He does not stomp it out. He isn’t waiting in ambush to take the life out of you like those “Christians” (sic) did. Had I been with you then, I would have put an arm around your shoulder, and said, “Glitch, I don’t recognize this god. Maybe you should take a second look. Are you _sure_ you want to give yourself over to this thing?” * * * 1. “One of the other boys in the prayer group found out I was reading the bushido and other non-Christian texts (oriental philosophy and such). He went ballistic towards me. He said I was defiling the gift God has given me, by seeking any kind of guidance elsewhere. He told the rest of the group about this. He told the minister I was a satanist who had boasted I was trying to infiltrate the group to bring it down. The minister kicked me out. The head minister of the church then talked to me. I told him everything. He said I was welcome to continue to come to the church, but that he agreed I shouldn’t be allowed in the prayer group. He also disapproved of reading “Buddhist” texts (none of the books were buddhist at all). He told me I had to stop reading those books or they would corrupt my soul, and that it would be the same as turning away from God.” Now, where in any of this did God tell you _anything_? Yes, I know that you were depending on what you believed to be His people (in all truth, I tell you they weren’t) to tell you His will. A boy found out you were reading the “dirty books” [eyes rolling]. He told the group. They told the minister. He told the High Holy Mullah. He told the Grand Dragon Poobah of All Poobah’s. Up the Tower of Power it went until word of what you were doing zapped God in the butt. Oh, Glitch. You would not worship such an impotent and pathetic god, would you? One that operates behind a secret curtain, doling out his orders to you by little men he sends out? Say it ain’t so. * * * That’s pretty much kind of how I see it, Glitch. Is your spirit dead? Yes, of course it is. How can a spirit live without the Bread of Life? Is this a hopeless situation? Not at all! By His own resurrection, He breathes the Breath of Life into us, restoring our spirits, cleansing them, and making them wholly new. Then, we eat His flesh and drink His blood to draw nourishment from Him. I have told you over and over, but I love you, and don’t mind telling you a hundred more times. **Look for God inside YOURSELF.** Look for the Spirit that INVIGORATES you, not the spirit that deflates you. Look for the Spirit that makes you feel ALIVE, not the spirit that tries to murder you. Look for the Spirit that your HEART treasures, not the one that your mind sees only dimly as some unrecognizable blob. Call out not to an impotent god, but to the God Who is there. I hope these words help you, my friend. But all my words can do is point you at where He stands. You must open your own eyes. And your own heart. All the best. ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2000, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/335 "2000-02-07T01:22:00Z")
> [@](#): > > So, no wonder you weren’t close, and never felt any kind of personal relationship with God. You found instead a god that some morons had told you about. How do you get close to something you have no knowledge about? It makes no sense. I think I can say with 100% certainty that every Christian before becoming a Christian learnt something about the nature of God (dicated by common sense, I have no proof). > [@](#): > > He isn’t waiting in ambush to take the life out of you like those “Christians” (sic) did. I do not believe for a moment that God killed me, or wanted me dead. I do not; however, believe that He wanted me alive. I think my existence was indifferent to Him, **OR** I did, in fact, do something wrong that violated His criteria (whatever that may be) for aid. > [@](#): > > Yes, I know that you were depending on what you believed to be His people (in all truth, I tell you they weren’t) to tell you His will. Why do you frown on this so highly? Don’t you read the Bible? Aren’t there many Christians who form fellowships with one another? The Bible itself says that Christians should come together (I don’t know where it is, but I am sure you know it). I agree, that this worldly source must only form a part of the total equation, but certainly it is not unreasonable to ignore it as a whole. > [@](#): > > You would not worship such an impotent and pathetic god, would you? One that operates behind a secret curtain, doling out his orders to you by little men he sends out? No, I would not, as you know. I would worship the god I call, the “Divine Me”, whose actions exactly match the actions that occured (not much of a surprise). Of course, the “Divine Me” is not the Christian God. There are far too many dissimilarities. > [@](#): > > Is your spirit dead? Yes, of course it is. How can a spirit live without the Bread of Life? Why would you then say on one occasion, “I have a beautiful spirit”, and on another occasion “… If I could have a spirit/soul I would like it to be like Glitches (sic)”? I find these two statements to be odd, in light of my dead spirit. > [@](#): > > I have told you over and over, but I love you, and don’t mind telling you a hundred more times. Look for God inside YOURSELF. > > Look for the Spirit that INVIGORATES you, not the spirit that deflates you. Look for the Spirit that makes you feel ALIVE, not the spirit that tries to murder you. Look for the Spirit that your HEART treasures, not the one that your mind sees only dimly as some unrecognizable blob. You could tell me a million times and I still don’t think I would understand. I know the Spirit that makes me live, it is the Spirit of Osu!. It is an imperfect replica of the “Divine Me” (i.e. me, since I am by definition the “Divine Me”, just not perfect), which as already covered is certainly not the Christian God. I appreciate you taking the time to make that list, Lib. ---
**Author:** ![bigred1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9de0a6/32.png) [@bigred1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bigred1)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2000, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/336 "2000-02-07T08:27:00Z")
Hi 😃 I’m baaack. Being that it’s late and I want to read through all the new stuff… I am going to post in quite the “blitzkrieg” fashion. So please forgive if I am not making sense. Lib: Wow… I really liked your ‘revelations’ of the John passage. Glitch: > [@](#): > > If I assume that saving my life was a miracle, can you explain why it occured after cutting into my body? > > Answering, this is crucial for me to accept it as a miracle. My first response is: for the same reason that I had to swallow all those pills first. Had I stopped myself, or prayed to God to stop me before I took the pills, there would have been no miracle. I need to think about this one some more. > [@](#): > > Perhaps this has been answered already (I tried to find it but really didn’t find a specific answer), what exactly would you say I did wrong while crying out to God? I’d have to say that you did nothing wrong. I also think you were seeking the right things. I have read and re-read your post. Your heart was in your prayers… I honestly believe that. I too believe God was there and answered… but answered in such a way that was not understood. (Allow me to paraphrase instead of quote for a moment. This way you can see how I am interpreting your words, and may find and point out flaws in how I have understood you.) You mentioned at one point of going from a feeling of despair to a feeling of nothing. More recently you have stated that you went from despair to disgust at God. Am I off the mark? Is one more true than the other? > [@](#): > > Out of curiousity, do you think I am spiritually dead, in particular, do you think my spirit is not alive? Be honest. You won’t hurt my feelings if you say something negative. > > If you think it is alive, how do you account for this from a theological perspective? You are spiritually searching… not yet alive, but also far from dead. Something (and IMO it is the Holy Spirit) has planted some slight ‘unrest’ in you… in your search for the ultimate truth. > [@](#): > > As I died, I was not necessarily looking for a miracle akin to the loaves and fishes. … (_and later_) … How do you interpret my pleas as I died in relation to this? Do you mean actually physically died? If not, what do you mean by ‘died’? I read the first one, and was going to let it go. But then you used the term again… and now I am confused. > [@](#): > > Which I cannot do, not again. Cannot? or Will not? I am not trying to aggravate you. I am trying to make you think. I am trying to understand you. I am trying to make ME think. > [@](#): > > How do you get close to something you have no knowledge about? It makes no sense. You are definitely not the first person I have had say this… [sarcasm on]I think I read it in at least umm… most of the 4 Gospels [/sarcasm off] 😛 They were just fortunate enough to have the ultimate teacher right there in front of them. And they _STILL_ didn’t always get it. > [@](#): > > I think I can say with 100% certainty that every Christian before becoming a Christian learnt something about the nature of God (dicated by common sense, I have no proof). Actually… using my best hindsight… I don’t think I did have an idea of the nature of God. Sure I had heard “God is love.” But to a non-believer, hearing the words and really taking them to heart are totally different. “God is love” was just a totally abstract idea, and church is just something I was dragged to before I was allowed to eat breakfast on Sunday morning. > [@](#): > > I do not; however, believe that He wanted me alive. I think my existence was indifferent to Him, OR I did, in fact, do something wrong that violated His criteria (whatever that may be) for aid. I respectfully disagree. This would be outside of the nature of God. > [@](#): > > Why do you frown on this so highly? Don’t you read the Bible? Aren’t there many Christians who form fellowships with one another? The Bible itself says that Christians should come together (I don’t know where it is, but I am sure you know it). And there is another passage that warns us to test what we hear against the Bible and what we understand about the nature of God… even if what we understand is very minimal. (1Thes5:21-22 “Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil.” AND 1John4:1 “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”) Gee… and this was going to be the short post 😉 I have yet to compose the longer one. I may not… I have found that fewer words can reach someone more effectively. Of course I didn’t take that to practice here. 😃 One last thing… > [@](#): > > ## I do truly hope that you find peace outside of depression. > > Interesting thought. Peace. I’ll respond to that later. I need to think about it. Any thoughts on this yet? Beth ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2000, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/337 "2000-02-07T13:12:00Z")
Oh, Glitch. The Christian God? [sits down, staring off into space, quietly dejected…] ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2000, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/338 "2000-02-07T14:07:00Z")
Would somebody explain how, no matter _what_ outcome Glitch’s situation, it can be called a “miracle” from god? God comes down and personally stops him-Miracle! Glitch feels religious all of a sudden-Miracle! Glitch starts cutting, has second thoughts-Miracle! Glitch carries the action through, fails to kill self-Miracle! Glitch carries the action through, kills self, you all say “Itsamystery!”-Miracle. In another thread, I said that if the definition of miracle can mean anything, it has no meaning at all. ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2000, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/339 "2000-02-07T14:30:00Z")
[quote] My first response is: for the same reason that I had to swallow all those pills first. Had I stopped myself, or prayed to God to stop me before I took the pills, there would have been no miracle. I need to think about this one some more.[/qoute] The way I see it is this. We have at our disposal three possible (non-obvious) miracles for both our situations: 1. Before 2. During 3. After 4. Before would be either dropping the sword without injury, or not taking any pills at all 5. During would be dropping the sword after starting to cutting one’s self open, but prior to actually delivering a fatal blow. Or in your case, if lets say you had of taken some pills, realized that it was “wrong” (for lack of a better word), and then thrown up then. 6. After would be after sustaining critical, life threatening or even a life ending blow. This is what I believe happened to you. You took about 200 pills, easily enough to kill you. But you didn’t die. My injuries were not life threatening. A similar miracle would have been actually driving the sword through my chest, being taken to the hospital and saved by doctors would later remark “I don’t know how you survived to even get here for treatment. You really should be dead.” Clearly, a “Before miracle” from a mortal psyche’s perspective is best (the least harm is done). An “After miracle” is perhaps the most convincing. A “During miracle” is simply the most cruel (of the three). On the continuum of harmfulness to convincingness it lies right in the middle. Causing just enough harm (to the psyche, if not the body), and lacking just enough “convincingness”. > [@](#): > > You mentioned at one point of going from a feeling of despair to a feeling of nothing. More recently you have stated that you went from despair to disgust at God. Am I off the mark? Is one more true than the other? No, both are accurate. The order is despair-\>nothingness-\>disgust. Despair is obvious enough. After I finished the prayers I was stunned. As I mentioned earlier, everything feel silent (internally, I mean). My mind, heart and soul were completely quiet. Really a fascinating experience. Years later that experience would become vitally important, but that’s another story. Anyway, that is the nothingness. Then as the blade started to cut through my body I felt disgust. [quote[You are spiritually searching… not yet alive, but also far from dead. Something (and IMO it is the Holy Spirit) has planted some slight ‘unrest’ in you… in your search for the ultimate truth.[/quote] Why would the Holy Spirit do that? Please explain. > [@](#): > > Do you mean actually physically died? If not, what do you mean by ‘died’? I read the first one, and was going to let it go. But then you used the term again… and now I am confused. I don’t think I can explain it. Clearly, I didn’t physically die, and I don’t mean spiritual death because that was my spiritual rebirth from dying (spiritually) earlier that year. I will try to avoid using the term since it causes confusion. > [@](#): > > Cannot? or Will not? Cannot. I am willing to try to the best of my ability, and thanks to my martial discipline that ability is considerable, although finite, and admitedly decreasing over time. When I accept the challenges, I can generate lots of sincerity (i.e. willingness) but no belief. > [@](#): > > Actually… using my best hindsight… I don’t think I did have an idea of the nature of God. Sure I had heard “God is love.” But to a non-believer, hearing the words and really taking them to heart are totally different. “God is love” was just a totally abstract idea, None the less, it is part of the nature of God. If you went to church you couldn’t help learning parts of the nature of God. You learnt that He loves us. You learnt that He believes in sacrifice as a virtue (sacrificed His son). Etc. Learning does not necessarily mean acceptance, but you did learn that these things were supposedly part of God. This gives you knowledge by which to grow acceptance of these things and faith in these things. Then the supposedly disappears and you have “that these things were part of God” with surety. But to grow faith in God in a vacuum of knowledge? > [@](#): > > I respectfully disagree. This would be outside of the nature of God. Perhaps so, but that doesn’t change my perspective on it. This is why it all hinges on one thing and one thing only. > [@](#): > > And there is another passage that warns us to test what we hear against the Bible and what we understand about the nature of God… even if what we understand is very minimal. (1Thes5:21-22 “Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil.” AND 1John4:1 “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”) I agree; however, Lib seems real down on this. I am curious why? Re: Peace Balance. Conflict is good. Peace is good. Too much of either is bad. I realize you qualified that as “peace from depression”, but I learn a lot during my lows. My students learn a lot too since I make them do many more push-ups when I am upset. Last year, I remember coming to the dojo after a hard day and night before. I heard a student say “Oh no, Shihan is in a bad mood. We are in for it tonight.” So, balance. Plus, I am looking at this reaslitically. I will not be free from them, best to use them to the best positive effect (Creation Principle … life from death). Lib: > [@](#): > > Oh, Glitch. The Christian God? I mean, of course, God as described by Christians like you, Polycarp, etc. It is just a term to designate what I am talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2000, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576/340 "2000-02-07T14:48:00Z")
Glitch: > [@](#): > > Beth: 1John4:1 “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” … Glitch: I agree; however, Lib seems real down on this. I am curious why? Um, Glitch, “do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” is _exactly_ the advice I gave you, advice that would have pegged those “Christians” as devils. > [@](#): > > I mean, of course, God as described by Christians like you, Polycarp, etc. It is just a term to designate what I am talking about. Maybe so. But I don’t recognize the god you seem to think I have described. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-believe/17576.md?page=18)