# Could you breed a group of chihuahuas back into wolves given enough time? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 8, 2012, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064 "2012-10-08T05:38:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064/21 "2012-10-09T02:04:18Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The link in my first post is of Carolina Dogs, as a classic example of a “yellow dog” phenotype. Other examples are the Australian Dingo and the pariah dogs of Asia. > > As has been pointed out, domestic dogs are currently classified as belonging to the same species as the Gray Wolf, _Canis lupus_. Formerly domestic derivatives of wild species were usually classified as separate species, but the modern tendency is to classify them as the same. In any case, the classification is moot because the Biological Species Concept doesn’t apply to non-natural populations (like domestic animals). Interesting… I have an Australian Cattledog (from reliable breeder.) I understand they’re “bred from” the dingo (and a few other interesting breeds of dog to combine with that). He seems closer than other dogs I know to his wild beginnings. Actions certainly. Body-wise, he kind of looks like Whoopi Goldberg in Lion King. (I know she played a hyena in that, but the moves of a dingo look similar.) If my Silas and sons were “bred back” toward the dingo, would you wish to speculate on what might happen? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064/22 "2012-10-09T05:35:50Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > If my Silas and sons were “bred back” toward the dingo, would you wish to speculate on what might happen? Given that the breed is part dingo to begin with, I don’t think it would be difficult to end up with something that was a lot like a dingo. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064/23 "2012-10-09T13:05:32Z")
Presumably the point of such a project – breeding Chihuahuas back into wolves – would be to make them less vicious? _rimshot_ ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064/24 "2012-10-09T17:02:33Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Presumably the point of such a project – breeding Chihuahuas back into wolves – would be to make them less vicious? > > _rimshot_ Is there such an animal as a mild mannered Chihuahua??? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064/25 "2012-10-09T17:06:17Z")
Wolves will show submission to the alpha pack members my chihuahua never acts submissive, so I assume the first step would be to breed chihuahuas for submissive traits. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064/26 "2012-10-09T17:11:21Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > Is there such an animal as a mild mannered Chihuahua??? 😕 Indeed. The so-called Napoleon Complex should really be called the Chihuahua Syndrome. A casual gesture as if to pet a strange Chihuahua almost always get treated as some kind of showdown, as if this were the internal dialogue: \ “LITTLE? Who you callin’ LITTLE? And I ain’t your buddy, Buddy! YAP YAP YAP YAP” \ “What? BIT? Oh, it’s ON, man. You want to know BIT? YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP” _CHOMP_" \ “ **YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP** ” And eventually, the 35 yard field goal was good. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064/27 "2012-10-15T15:50:44Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Given that the breed is part dingo to begin with, I don’t think it would be difficult to end up with something that was a lot like a dingo. I think so, too. One or two generations. Strange because the dingo strain was introduced fairly far back into the border collie line. i think. ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064/28 "2012-10-15T20:48:30Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > What you could do with relative ease is get back to something that is indistinguishable from a wolf in appearance and behaviour. Of course, after some x number of generations you could also breed chihuahuas into something indistinguishable from whales, or dinosaurs or amoeba or pineapples or any other lifeform that has ever existed. Working with the present genetic material of only a chihuahua I doubt it would be possible to ever return to something indistinguishable from a wolf. The genes simply are no longer present. A selective breeding program (wherein one picked desirable “wolf like” traits) would result in something based upon the present genetic material. Selective breeding narrows the gene pool, sometimes quite significantly. For example, In dogs “[rigorous phenotypic selection likely resulted in a loss of genetic information.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12692167)” ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064/29 "2012-10-15T21:20:54Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > When you cross all possible domestic dogs, you get a dingo-like medium sized yellow dog with a curled up tail. this seems to be the design of the proto-dog. The [Carolina Dog](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Dog) is another example. It’s still a domestic dog, canis familiaris. Wolves and dogs are not in the same species, so you won’t get a wolf in any human timescale. Splitter! > [@Darwins\_Finch](#): > > Domestic dogs are currently classified as _Canis lupus familiaris_, a subspecies of gray wolf. So, yeah, they are in the same species. Lumper! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064/30 "2012-10-16T07:35:07Z")
> [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](#): > > Working with the present genetic material of only a chihuahua I doubt it would be possible to ever return to something indistinguishable from a wolf. Can we have a source for this remarkable claim that no novel mutation will ever again occur in dogs? > [@](#): > > The genes simply are no longer present. A selective breeding program (wherein one picked desirable “wolf like” traits) would result in something based upon the present genetic material. Selective breeding narrows the gene pool, sometimes quite significantly. You do realise I already said \*exactly \*this? In the very post that you quoted from? Right? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064/31 "2012-10-16T12:03:47Z")
Note for the record: While I was unable to resist making a joke, I do not support the idea of prejudice toward any breed of dog. Or toward chihuahuas, for that matter. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064/32 "2012-10-16T18:35:41Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I saw a picture of a basset crossed with an english bull that produced a show quality st bernard. What?? No you didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064/33 "2012-10-16T18:51:04Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Someone in Russia bred foxes (not wolves) into a dog-like breed in an astonishingly small number of generations (something like 20, I believe) just by choosing the most docile in each generation. The resultant animal was not only behaviorally dog-like (no surprise because that’s what it was bred for), but had also acquired some of the physical characteristics. Soviet-era scientist Dmitri Belyaev. He selected for tameness; one of the goals, IIRC, was to make it possible to farm silver foxes (a Russian variety of the red fox). One of the unintended (and unwanted) side effects was that the fur of the domesticated fox became more mottled than that of the wild foxes, making it less desirable for use in the fur industry. > **[Domesticated silver fox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox)** > > The domesticated silver fox (Vulpes vulpes forma amicus) is a form of the silver fox that has been to some extent domesticated under laboratory conditions. The silver fox is a melanistic form of the wild red fox. Domesticated silver foxes are the result of an experiment designed to demonstrate the power of selective breeding to transform species, as described by Charles Darwin in On the Origin of Species. The experiment at the Institute of Cytology and Genetics in Novosibirsk, Russia, explored In... ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064/34 "2012-10-16T19:14:03Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Can we have a source for this remarkable claim that no novel mutation will ever again occur in dogs? Waiting around for novel mutation(s) that confers large size is likely to take a quite long time (in human terms), unless you want to breed up to a population size of several million chihuahuas (shudder the thought). While it might be theoretically possible, it might not be feasible in any practical terms (and certainly not something that could be done with “relative ease”). ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064/35 "2012-10-16T21:40:58Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Someone in Russia bred foxes (not wolves) into a dog-like breed in an astonishingly small number of generations (something like 20, I believe) just by choosing the most docile in each generation. The resultant animal was not only behaviorally dog-like (no surprise because that’s what it was bred for), but had also acquired some of the physical characteristics. Quibble: it was not actively bred to be “doglike”, but rather for domestication. The intent was selecting foxes that reacted less and less hostile to humans, until they would accept human handling, or even seek out human handling. While those are traits of domesticated dogs, they are also traits of other domesticated animals, like cats. The “doglike” traits developed as side effects. Things like whining for attention, as well as physical characteristics like the mottled coat, and droopy ears. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064/36 "2012-10-16T23:31:15Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > The “doglike” traits developed as side effects. Things like whining for attention, as well as physical characteristics like the mottled coat, and droopy ears. Evidently selecting for tameness selects for juvenilization, and these may be associated traits. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064/37 "2012-10-17T19:27:06Z")
Just wanted to clarify my comments about what Hari said. Foxes are canids, so in breeding for domestication one might reasonably if loosely describe that as breeding for more doglike traits. My point was to emphasize that the only trait the researchers were actively selecting was least negative/most positive response to human handlers. All other behavior and physical changes were not selection criteria, and were side effects to the breeding program. > [@Colibri](#): > > Evidently selecting for tameness selects for juvenilization, and these may be associated traits. That was, in fact, discussed by the research team. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-breed-a-group-of-chihuahuas-back-into-wolves-given-enough-time/637064.md?page=1)