# Could you fly a private plane on isolated private land without a pilots lucense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 2, 2017, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915 "2017-06-02T05:55:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dude\_robert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8e7dd6/32.png) [@dude\_robert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dude_robert)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/1 "2017-06-02T05:55:02Z")
And what would happen if you did ? How would such a law be enforced, unless the cops frequently investgate farmers that fly airplanes for a proper pilots license? Lets say you inherited a massive farm with poor roads and you couldnt be bothered walking across. Luckily, there is an old rusted helicopter on a cornfield, and although you can’t afford a license, its your land so you fire it up and give it a whirl. What would the law say about this? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/2 "2017-06-02T06:12:38Z")
No. You don’t fly on the land, you fly in the air and the air is goverened by the FAA regardless of whose land is under it. As a practical matter you would be unlikely to be caught. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/3 "2017-06-02T06:45:31Z")
I once saw FAA enforcement at a tiny airport in the Sierra Nevada foothills - the old boy had a dispute with the only mechanic in the area about the (required) annual inspection. The mechanic called the FAA ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/4 "2017-06-02T07:21:19Z")
The likely outcomes here are: A) Nothing happens because the old helicopter abandoned to rot in a cornfield doesn’t even work. Which means there’s nothing to enforce. B) The helicopter crashes because some random person who inherited it decided to try to take it for a whirl. This attracts a lot of attention that wouldn’t normally be focused on a farm field. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/5 "2017-06-02T07:26:13Z")
> [@dude\_robert](#): > > And what would happen if you did ? How would such a law be enforced, unless the cops frequently investgate farmers that fly airplanes for a proper pilots license? > > Lets say you inherited a massive farm with poor roads and you couldnt be bothered walking across. Luckily, there is an old rusted helicopter on a cornfield, and although you can’t afford a license, its your land so you fire it up and give it a whirl. What would the law say about this? So, this would be a farm with no ATVs, tractors, 4-wheel drive vehicles, or even a broken-down horse? ---
**Author:** ![dude\_robert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8e7dd6/32.png) [@dude\_robert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dude_robert)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/6 "2017-06-02T07:33:53Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > No. You don’t fly on the land, you fly in the air and the air is goverened by the FAA regardless of whose land is under it. > > As a practical matter you would be unlikely to be caught. Surely the FAA don’t own all of the air, though? What height does the FAA start the to own the air? What if you just flew a gyrocopter or manned DIY drone-thing less than 15 meters above the ground? BTW, this is a purely hypothetical question in it’s entirety, but, if someone strongly disliked you and held a grudge against you for whatever reason and reported you to the FAA for flying a aircraft on your own property without a license, would they bother investigating it? Why would they really care if he was only flying it on his own property? Wouldn’t that just be a waste of time and money? Also: Are there any laws against flying dangerously on a sufficiently large piece of private property in which it could not harm other people? And what are the laws on flying DIY aircraft on your own land with or without a proper license? What would actually qualify as a aircraft? Let’s of course assume there are no official flight paths or anything anywhere near your property. EDIT: I’ve rarely ever been to a working farm before, so I don’t really know what bits of equipment are usually present on farms. However, I’ve seen plenty of farmers on videos and TV use helicopters and light airplanes to do stuff around their farming yard, and there are lots of boar hunting videos on youtube with hunters flying in very low-flying helicopters. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/7 "2017-06-02T07:43:18Z")
> [@dude\_robert](#): > > Surely the FAA don’t own all of the air, though? What height does the FAA start the to own the air? You are assuming that the laws are written entirely by reference to height. I’m no expert but strongly suspect they simply apply to something that is flying. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/8 "2017-06-02T07:46:53Z")
> [@dude\_robert](#): > > Surely the FAA don’t own all of the air, though? What height does the FAA start the to own the air? What if you just flew a gyrocopter or manned DIY drone-thing less than 15 meters above the ground? The government doesn’t have to own something to regulate your conduct in or on it. ---
**Author:** ![dude\_robert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8e7dd6/32.png) [@dude\_robert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dude_robert)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/9 "2017-06-02T07:52:37Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > You are assuming that the laws are written entirely by reference to height. I’m no expert but strongly suspect they simply apply to something that is flying. Wouldn’t that be too convoluted? “Everything” also includes things like paper planes, tiny single-cell cardboard AAA fliers (the ones that are literally lighter than a fly), balls/frisbees and bits of rubbish people throw in their garbage stack, even bits of burning smoke/dust/particles could be considered aircraft, which would be silly. What if the aircraft has a long rope or string dangling from it all the way to the ground? Since there is a part of the vehicle touching the ground at all/most times, could it still be considered an aircraft? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/10 "2017-06-02T07:58:40Z")
> [@dude\_robert](#): > > Wouldn’t that be too convoluted? “Everything” also includes things like paper planes, tiny single-cell cardboard AAA fliers (the ones that are literally lighter than a fly), balls/frisbees and bits of rubbish people throw in their garbage stack, even bits of burning smoke/dust/particles could be considered aircraft, which would be silly. > > What if the aircraft has a long rope or string dangling from it all the way to the ground? Since there is a part of the vehicle touching the ground at all/most times, could it still be considered an aircraft? I suspect the definition is written to exclude the above. It wouldn’t be hard. Courts aren’t actually as stupid as your (frankly rather silly) comments above imply. You seriously think that if a statute is worded to apply to “aircraft” a court might think that covered smoke particles or balls? ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/11 "2017-06-02T08:01:21Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > The government doesn’t have to own something to regulate your conduct in or on it. True, but (caveat: not a lawyer, and this is wikipedia), from [here:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_rights) > [@wikipedia](#): > > In the United States, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has the sole authority to control all “publicly owned” airspace, exclusively determining the rules and requirements for its use. Specifically, the Federal Aviation Act provides that: “The United States Government has exclusive sovereignty of airspace of the United States”, but not all the airspace is “possessed” by the United States. > > \ > > The exact altitude(s) at which the airspace over private land becomes “public” airspace, or where the upward bounds of national sovereignty extends is often debated, but the Supreme Court rulings and space treaties are clear. A Landowner’s domain extends up to at least 365 feet above the ground. see Causby v US (1946), and no nation can prevent orbits above the earths atmosphere. So presuming accuracy of the wikipedia entry, doesn’t this say that there is _some_ altitude below which the FAA lacks rule making authority? This is not to say that the FAA might not attempt to impose regulations anyway, of course, but is to suggest that they might not be authorized to do so. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/12 "2017-06-02T08:34:16Z")
In the UK, you can fly a FOOT-launched microlight > [@](#): > > FLMs are governed by fewer regulations than any other form of powered aviation. > > Although you still need to comply with the rest of air law, there’s no need to get a pilot’s licence, and the aircraft doesn’t need a permit to fly (the aviation equivalent of an MoT). > > FLMs come in two types: paramotors and powered hang gliders. In either case, the pilot must be over 16 and the FLM must weigh less than 60kg. And while there’s no legal requirement to take lessons, it’s probably cheaper than the bruises and repair bills you’ll get if you try to learn on your own! > > [http://www.bmaa.org/pwpcontrol.php?pwpID=2602](http://www.bmaa.org/pwpcontrol.php?pwpID=2602) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/13 "2017-06-02T08:46:41Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > So, this would be a farm with no ATVs, tractors, 4-wheel drive vehicles, or even a broken-down horse? They got rid of them after the Motor Law. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/14 "2017-06-02T10:45:12Z")
In the US, FAA interest in and inspection of remote private airstrips tends to be low. Basically, as long as no problems are reported, they have better things to spend time on. So if an unlicensed pilot flew a plane at such a place without issues, he could expect to get away with this more or less indefinitely. I’ve heard tales of older pilots doing this “happily ever after”. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/15 "2017-06-02T11:06:31Z")
> [@dude\_robert](#): > > Surely the FAA don’t own all of the air, though? Pretty much, yeah, they do. > [@](#): > > What height does the FAA start the to own the air? What if you just flew a gyrocopter or manned DIY drone-thing less than 15 meters above the ground? A gyrocopter that can carry a person is going to fall under either Part 91 or Part 103 of the regulations. Part 91 requires a license, Part 103 does not. A DIY “drone-thing” (I’ve actually built and flown a few) now fall under the applicable regs - if it’s under 0.55 pounds have fun but anything heavier now requires registration and has rules. If you don’t call attention to yourself and stay over your private property you will _probably_ not get caught but if you do the resulting fines could be expensive. Also, gyrocopters are unusual enough in today’s world they tend to attract some attention just by being loud and visibly flying. > [@](#): > > BTW, this is a purely hypothetical question in it’s entirety, but, if someone strongly disliked you and held a grudge against you for whatever reason and reported you to the FAA for flying a aircraft on your own property without a license, would they bother investigating it? In my experience based on flying ultralights and small homebuilts in rural Wisconsin in the 1990’s - yep, the FAA would check it out. These days, with they concerns about terrorism, they’d probably be even more likely to check out a report of illegal aviation activity. > [@](#): > > Why would they really care if he was only flying it on his own property? Wouldn’t that just be a waste of time and money? The FAA will happily let you kill/maim yourself - that’s one reason Part 103 exists. If anyone else is at risk, though, they WILL become very, very interested. And, like I said, these days with terrorism concerns they will check out anything reported as suspicious. > [@](#): > > Also: Are there any laws against flying dangerously on a sufficiently large piece of private property in which it could not harm other people? If you are flying in compliance with Part 103 in the US - single seat, low-power ultralights - and _not putting anyone else at risk_ you can do any batshit crazy thing you want. If you crash and kill yourself in a Part 103 contraption it’s likely even the NTSB wouldn’t give a damn as long as you don’t take anyone else with you. I will point out that, to my knowledge, no one has ever built a working and actually Part 103 compliant helicopter. There have been attempts at doing so for gyrocopters but success has been questionable both from the standpoint of “actually flies” and “pilot survives”. Fixed-wing, hang-glider styles, and variations powered parachutes/parasails have been much more successful. Other nations tend to be a bit more restrictive. > [@](#): > > And what are the laws on flying DIY aircraft on your own land with or without a proper license? What would actually qualify as a aircraft? Let’s of course assume there are no official flight paths or anything anywhere near your property. The pertinent regulations you are looking for, for manned flying things, are under FAR Part 103 in the US. Technically, anything falling under Part 103 is NOT an “aircraft”, it’s a “vehicle”. There are also the new drone regulations, or more accurately, “unmanned air vehicles”, note again the use of the term “vehicle”. > [@](#): > > However, I’ve seen plenty of farmers on videos and TV use helicopters and light airplanes to do stuff around their farming yard, and there are lots of boar hunting videos on youtube with hunters flying in very low-flying helicopters. Getting a pilot’s license isn’t _that_ hard - heck, I’ve done it myself. Plenty of farmer’s have licenses. And a certain number don’t, but either fly something to which Part 103 applies (or something close enough it would require a pretty close-up inspection to find the differences), or yes, some are flying illegally but, as I said, if you aren’t too obnoxious and don’t piss off the neighbors you might get away with it for some time. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/16 "2017-06-02T11:28:30Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > A DIY “drone-thing” (I’ve actually built and flown a few) now fall under the applicable regs - if it’s under 0.55 pounds have fun but anything heavier now requires registration and has rules. Breaking news: the DC Circuit just last week decided _Taylor v. Huerta, FAA Administrator._ (No. 15-1495, May 19 2017): > [@](#): > > Congress has charged the Federal Aviation Administration with maintaining the safety of the Nation’s air traffic. As small unmanned aircraft (sometimes known as drones) have become more popular, the number of unmanned aircraft-related safety incidents has increased. In 2015, in an effort to address that trend, the FAA promulgated a rule known as the Registration Rule. That Rule requires the owners of small unmanned aircraft operated for recreational purposes to register with the FAA. Unmanned aircraft operated for recreational purposes are known as “model aircraft,” and we will use that term throughout this opinion. > . > . > . > Petitioner John Taylor is a model aircraft hobbyist who is now required to register with the FAA. He has operated model aircraft from his home in the Washington, D.C., area, and he wants to continue to do so without registering or complying with the new flight restrictions. Taylor filed petitions in this Court to challenge the FAA’s Registration Rule and the Advisory Circular. > > To begin, Taylor does not think that the FAA had the statutory authority to issue the Registration Rule and require him to register. Taylor is right. In 2012, Congress passed and President Obama signed the FAA Modernization and Reform Act. Section 336(a) of that Act states that the FAA “may not promulgate any rule or regulation regarding a model aircraft.” Pub. L. No. 112–95, § 336(a), 126 Stat. 11, 77 (2012) (codified at 49 U.S.C. § 40101 note). The FAA’s 2015 Registration Rule, which applies to model aircraft, directly violates that clear statutory prohibition. **We therefore grant Taylor’s petition and vacate the Registration Rule to the extent it applies to model aircraft.** (emphasis added) ---
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/17 "2017-06-02T12:03:23Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > They got rid of them after the Motor Law. found the Canadian driving a Red Barchetta:) ---
**Author:** ![joema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@joema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joema)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/18 "2017-06-02T13:27:23Z")
> [@g8rguy](#): > > …doesn’t this say that there is _some_ altitude below which the FAA lacks rule making authority?.. In theory the FAA owns all US navigable airspace down to the ground. Since some aircraft such as balloons often fly very low, this would include those altitudes. E.g, if a hot air balloon crashes into a power line, that low altitude does not limit FAA investigative or regulatory authority. A farmer can’t shoot at a low-flying police helicopter which scared his cows, even though he owns the property beneath the air space. He also can’t restrict flight over his property, otherwise aircraft would be cutting zig-zag patterns as they flew. The single US Supreme Court case which partially conflicts with this was United States vs. Causby in 1946: [United States v. Causby - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Causby) If revisited that likely be overturned, due to situations involving balloons and helicopters which did not exist in 1946. ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/19 "2017-06-02T14:31:59Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > They got rid of them after the Motor Law. > [@Sigene](#): > > found the Canadian driving a Red Barchetta:) I love youse guys. I gotta go catch a turbine freight. Later. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915/20 "2017-06-02T15:08:06Z")
I have been to and talked with old man on big land plot that had old J-3 cub that you could stick your finger through, had not been inspected for many years, the man did not have a pilots license, never went over 300 feet and never crossed his property lines. A few turned him in. The FAA laughed, he is perfectly legal in what he is doing. Even the new officious asshat FAA bureaucrats know better. The government does not own all the air clear to the ground. Seems it is 365 AGL over private land that is not in a class airspace such as an approach to an airport. ( see above post, I though it was 300 AGL so 300 is good IMO. ) As a pipeline patrol pilot I was shot at by chicken & turkey farmers on a new route at times. Got the bullet holes to prove it. We just noted it & flew around or higher over that place as we were not interested in killing thousands of birds, even ones that stupid. Every once in a while a guy would be too good a wing shot and then we would call the sheriff for that county if the shooter was going out of a reasonable distance to try to shoot us down. Usually only took one visit to calm them down. Fun times… Oh, one guy had bought a plane in a box, assembled it and taught himself to fly it. Stayed low and inside his property lines.He was a transplanted Englishman so it was not all that surprising. They are a hoot in many ways. Passengers, acting the ass, lots of ways to get the FAA to look at you but if you don’t do that, a local busybody can’t hurt you. Got to stay low though. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-fly-a-private-plane-on-isolated-private-land-without-a-pilots-lucense/787915.md?page=2)