# Could you have a true dictatorship in a country with more guns than people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [November 8, 2024, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915 "2024-11-08T08:27:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/61 "2024-12-04T19:49:29Z")
> [@JacobSwan](#): > > The shooter escaped on an E-bike. I can see those being banned because of this long before guns are. . Of course that would be the gun-industry-argument style of insanity that we’ve seen in the past. But e-bikes are rare in the nation as a whole, so I doubt that the gun industry would get very far with a ‘ban e-bikes!’ campaign. As I said, if this is the _only_ incident of vulnerability of the top 1%, it will likely blow over with no calls for changes in the availability of firearms. _Unless_ Trump gets it into his head to have a nation such as his mentors Vlad and Xi have, in which ordinary citizens have little or no access to weapons. In that case, he might use this incident as a pretext for cracking down. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/62 "2024-12-04T21:31:27Z")
If Trump and his backers decided to move against gun ownership because it was threatening the elite, would the Democrats _finally_ see some liberationist merit to gun ownership ([like this left commentator did](https://www.thepolemicist.net/2013/01/the-rifle-on-wall-left-argument-for-gun.html))? Or would they say “well okay, so Trump did **one** good thing.” 🤨 ? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/63 "2024-12-04T21:51:12Z")
> [@bump](#): > > To point one, the National Guard (under state command) is smaller than the standing army, but not so much so that it doesn’t count as a huge military in its own right. It’s roughly 3/4 the size of the standing army and air force. It is also under Federal control. > [@Cmyers1980](#): > > Nothing significant will happen as long as things don’t get too awful. Right, This goes for any Dictatorship. Does the economy work? Are the oppressed small minorities? _First they came for the Communists_ _And I did not speak out_ _Because I was not a Communist_ _Then they came for the Socialists_ _And I did not speak out_ _Because I was not a Socialist_ _Then they came for the trade unionists_ _And I did not speak out_ _Because I was not a trade unionist_ _Then they came for the Jews_ _And I did not speak out_ _Because I was not a Jew_ _Then they came for me_ _And there was no one left_ _To speak out for me_ You get revolts when things get bad. And yeah, trump will see high inflation, I predict. But not so much there will be riots and revolts. Just that MAGAism will be voted out. Until the people forgot, and then… ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/64 "2024-12-04T22:10:15Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > If Trump and his backers decided to move against gun ownership because it was threatening the elite, would the Democrats _finally_ see some liberationist merit to gun ownership I suppose it would depend on whether or not it worked. If the people most loud-mouthed about “From my cold dead hands!” don’t start a civil was over this, then the (alleged) whole point of gun ownership has been proven to be false. Plus, it isn’t about “Having no guns at all”, it’s more about “Not letting every idiot with a pulse have a gun”. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/65 "2024-12-04T22:28:15Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I can tell you from personal experience that that just isn’t so. The overwhelming majority of gun owners I know are libertarian or even anarchist; Most people who describe themselves as “libertarian or even anarchist” voted in a guy who swore to be an authoritarian dictator. > [@Lumpy](#): > > Just because people can be extremely reactionary does not mean they are motivated by hate and cruelty. Remember, they see _themselves_ as the aggrieved party. Thank you, I take great comfort in the fact that the people who will be trying to kill me are fundamentally decent folks who are just misinformed. That makes everything so much better. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/66 "2024-12-04T22:41:35Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Again, I’m just not seeing the pro-fascist activism you paint conservative gun owners with in the actual gun owners I know. There’s an estimated 80 million gun owners in the US. Please express how many of them you personally know as a fraction of that whole. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/67 "2024-12-04T22:53:00Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > If ‘_not even a billionaire-CEO is safe_’ becomes widespread enough, Trump’s minions will be able to use it as a pretext for disarming the masses. Just as Sandy Hook … changed nothing … so, too, did the only gun violence that Trump would ever possibly care about: _him_ getting shot _and_ a foiled attempt at a second round. If that didn’t move the firing pin … I really don’t know what would. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/68 "2024-12-04T23:14:23Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > In the context of someone who apparently genuinely (though mistakenly) believed that the Democrats had conspired to steal the 2020 election (but they didn’t), he was asking “where do you draw the line? When do you actually rise up?” How does this person feel about illegal immigrants, and Leftist radicals. If the duly elected government told him that the American system was under attack from within and he was being deputized to help them hunt down and bring to justice those who were trying to destroy his freedom, would he heed the call? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/69 "2024-12-04T23:46:06Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Plus, it isn’t about “Having no guns at all”, it’s more about “Not letting every idiot with a pulse have a gun”. Okay, how about declaring that anyone who believes the “lamestream media” is self-evidently an idiot, and only those who have thrown off leftist brainwashing should have a gun. You disagree? You feel that _you’re_ qualified to declare who is an idiot with a pulse and who isn’t? Because you’re so much smarter than they are? Well, a hell of a lot of those _ **stooopid** _ people– deplorables really– don’t think so; right or wrong, they see your stance as insufferably arrogant, elitist, and tyrannical. And they have guns. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/70 "2024-12-04T23:54:53Z")
Y’know, we used to have these things called “courts”, and “laws”, and people used to be able to more or less agree that it was good to put things in the hands of the courts and laws. Whatever happened to that? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/71 "2024-12-05T00:01:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Y’know, we used to have these things called “courts”, and “laws”, and people used to be able to more or less agree that it was good to put things in the hands of the courts and laws > Whatever happened to that? Fortunately we do still have them. And so far anyway the courts and laws have declared that owning firearms is officially enshrined as a right, not a privilege. If virtually everyone disputed this, there’s even this meta-law called the amendment process. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/72 "2024-12-05T00:07:20Z")
And the courts and laws also hold that some people forfeit that right. Except that it’s impossible to enforce those laws, for various reasons (for instance, the fact that gun sellers aren’t required to check to see if their customers aren’t allowed to own firearms). And whenever anyone suggests that we should try to change things so we could enforce the law, Republicans go crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/73 "2024-12-05T00:12:36Z")
Gun sellers in fact are on the hook if they sell a gun to someone who is ineligible to own one legally. Even if there was a law requiring any transfer of a gun to go through a background check, how many illegal gun sales would that catch or prevent? Neither a burglar who stole a gun out of a house nor a career criminal who bought it hot on the street would give a shit. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/74 "2024-12-05T03:08:01Z")
Where do you think the guns in “illegal gun sales” come from in the first place? At some stage in the process, a “legitimate” owner is selling to an “illegitimate” owner. Crack down on that stage, and you eventually push it back to an actual legitimate owner, who won’t sell to criminals. > [@Lumpy](#): > > Neither a burglar who stole a gun out of a house… Surely this isn’t possible? Gun-grabbers (by which I mean people who grab guns, not people who don’t want to grab guns) keep telling us that having a gun protects you against burglary. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/75 "2024-12-05T05:01:49Z")
There is absolutely no way of detecting an unlawful transfer of a firearm, background check laws or no, until a gun is recovered by law enforcement and its chain of custody traced. I don’t see how enacting a floutable law changes that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/76 "2024-12-05T05:07:50Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Just because people can be extremely reactionary does not mean they are motivated by hate and cruelty. Remember, they see _themselves_ as the aggrieved party. So did the Nazis. In real life “extremely reactionary” people are consistently “motivated by hate and cruelty”, because that’s what reactionary, traditional values _are._ Hate. Cruelty. Malice. There’s also greed and power lust, but those are hardly virtues either. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/77 "2024-12-05T17:17:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It is also under Federal control. Most of the time, it’s not, and is under the control of their respective State governments. A State governor doesn’t have to get Federal permission to deploy their National Guard units within their own state, or to other states if they consent. NG units can be “Federalized”, which means that they get brought into the Army/Air Force And I suspect in some sort of state-level rebellion, that would be the decision that the National Guard commanders would have to make. I suspect it would come down to whether the Federal orders/actions are considered lawful. And I also suspect that if things came to such a pass where a State was rebelling and calling up its National Guard, that would probably be considered the case. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In real life “extremely reactionary” people are consistently “motivated by hate and cruelty”, because that’s what reactionary, traditional values _are._ Hate. Cruelty. Malice. There’s also greed and power lust, but those are hardly virtues either. Care to offer proof? Your contention is hyperbolic and absurd. Most really reactionary people I’ve known were driven more by a fear and distrust of change than anything else. They like things the way they are, or the way they were, and don’t want to change It doesn’t have anything to do with hate or cruelty whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/78 "2024-12-05T18:11:59Z")
It would be more accurate to describe the National Guard as a branch of the US Army Reserve, which the state governors are allowed to use when the Federal government isn’t using them. The federal legislation establishing the National Guard makes it clear that these are **not** traditional state militia. The N.G. is funded at the federal level for example. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/79 "2024-12-05T18:27:02Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Care to offer proof? Your contention is hyperbolic and absurd. Most really reactionary people I’ve known were driven more by a fear and distrust of change than anything else. They like things the way they are, or the way they were, and don’t want to change It doesn’t have anything to do with hate or cruelty whatsoever. Of course, you are conveniently avoiding mentioning _exactly_ what the changes they fear are, and what the supposed past they want to return to was like. Reducing women to second class citizens, marital rape being legal, racial segregation or slavery, massive persecution of LGBT people, fun stuff like that. The change they want to revert _is_ the reduction of their hatred and cruelty. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/80 "2024-12-05T20:55:22Z")
> [@aurora\_maire](#): > > Right now. But the leopard-eating-their-face part will come for many of them. Leopards have been eating their faces going on half a century. They are still voting for the leopard. They will take up arms and defend the leopard. They will happily die for the leopard as long as they know its hurting the people they hate as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915.md?page=5)