# Could you have a true dictatorship in a country with more guns than people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [November 8, 2024, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915 "2024-11-08T08:27:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/121 "2024-12-08T04:33:14Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Are you saying that no person of color should ever be shot dead by a white person for any reason whatsoever, no excuses, because every single such instance is without exception the murder of a black person by a white racist? No, why do you ask? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/122 "2024-12-08T04:48:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > No, why do you ask? Because if you concede that much then the question must be asked in each case “was this shooting legally justified or was it murder”. You present the impression of believing that it was murder 99.999% of the time, to the point of accusing the criminal justice system of complicity in oppression. If you believe that it’s murder “only” 75-85% of the time I’d be happy to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/123 "2024-12-08T04:51:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Lumpy](#): > > > > Why are the bigots’ victims helpless in this scenario? Aren’t they armed too? > > They are outnumbered, probably not killers, and the bigots typically have the backing of the authorities. A random civilian or two with guns against a mob of a hundred with guns and the police will just die You always, always throw the authorities into the balance in these scenarios. To the point that I genuinely wonder why you think the pro-bigot mobs are necessary at all. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/124 "2024-12-08T07:12:47Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > You always, always throw the authorities into the balance in these scenarios. To the point that I genuinely wonder why you think the pro-bigot mobs are necessary at all. It’s far easier to let the mobs do the killing for free than to have the government do it all. Plus it’s not about “necessary”, they murder because they _want_ to, not because they need to. Read a little history. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/125 "2024-12-08T12:48:38Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Because if you concede that much then the question must be asked in each case “was this shooting legally justified or was it murder”. And in our society, the only question that’s ever asked to determine that is “was the victim a black man with a gun”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/126 "2024-12-08T15:02:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And in our society, the only question that’s ever asked to determine that is “was the victim a black man with a gun”. Or even “theoretically _might_ have had a gun”. Or “he had a gun once we planted it on him”. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/127 "2024-12-08T15:10:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > in our society, the only question that’s ever asked to determine that is “was the victim a black man with a gun”. Which would seem to contradict your previous reply; I’m hearing “I’m not saying it’s aliens, but…” > [@Chronos](#): > > > [@Lumpy](#): > > > > Are you saying that no person of color should ever be shot dead by a white person for any reason whatsoever, no excuses, because every single such instance is without exception the murder of a black person by a white racist? If that’s what you really, truly believe say so, so that people of reason can dismiss you. > > No, why do you ask? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/128 "2024-12-08T15:31:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > And in our society, the only question that’s ever asked to determine that is “was the victim a black man with a gun”. > > Or even “theoretically _might_ have had a gun”. Or “he had a gun once we planted it on him”. That is the beauty of that argument: in America, anyone might have had a gun or been reaching for a gun. If that were not the case, why would run-of-the-mill cops even be carrying guns themselves? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/129 "2024-12-08T21:36:30Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > If that were not the case, why would run-of-the-mill cops even be carrying guns themselves? Other than GB, “run of the mill” are armed in just about every nation- France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Japan. Mind you some of those do have unarmed units also. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/130 "2024-12-08T21:38:12Z")
> [@aurora\_maire](#): > > Just the threat that there could be random assassinations of high-level executives/officials at any time should put _some_ constraints on how far into a dictatorship they are willing to go. Or it might put constraints on how well-armed they are willing for the population to be. And of course the way to change that is to go full-dictatorship. Is full-dictatorship bad for business? Yes, of course. The national productivity, rate of innovation, and per-capita wealth will all plummet under dictatorship (disarmed or not). But those at the top don’t care about any of those things. They care only about their own status, comfort, and power. If the nation declines it’s not their concern. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/131 "2024-12-08T22:27:55Z")
Would the pair of you please end this hijack now. It is off-topic. **Moderating:** ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2024, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/132 "2024-12-16T17:09:21Z")
The obvious counter example that disproves this is post WW2 eastern Europe. Immediate post war Europe had more guns in circulation than any society in history. I can’t find exact numbers as Google sucks now\*, but more than people I think (and if not, it definitely had more military guns and people trained to fight with them, than modern day US, a 9mm handgun is not going to you much good against a dictator’s fully armed and armored military). How effective were those guns against the Red Army when Stalin decided he wanted those eastern European nations to be Communist dictatorship (after the fact they then, as any gun nut will tell you, implemented strict gun laws but when they seized power they were loads and loads of guns in circulation) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2024, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/133 "2024-12-16T17:14:34Z")
And as I mentioned earlier Sddam Hussein never bothers with gun control in Iraq; it was the Americans who imposed it. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2024, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/134 "2024-12-16T17:22:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Far too many of those gun owners are supporting this guy. Exactly. They have been conditioning their constituency to not only accept a dictatorship but to actually view it in a favorable light. Remember, the Roman senate actually GAVE Caesar absolute power, he didn’t have to take it by force. Also, the Reichstag did pretty much the same thing with Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2024, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/135 "2024-12-16T17:48:26Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > The obvious counter example that disproves this is post WW2 eastern Europe. > > Immediate post war Europe had more guns in circulation than any society in history. > How effective were those guns against the Red Army when Stalin decided he wanted those eastern European nations to be Communist dictatorship (after the fact they then, as any gun nut will tell you, implemented strict gun laws but when they seized power they were loads and loads of guns in circulation) There was some ultimately failed anti-Soviet partisanship; but consider the context. For four years or more the peoples of Eastern Europe were effectively faced with the choice of supporting Hitler or supporting Stalin. Most of the people prepared to oppose Stalin had done so by supporting Hitler, and they lost. Many if not most of the people who supported Stalin employed enough cognitive dissonance to believe that the Soviets were on the side of good and right, or at least peace and order, or at least weren’t Nazis engaged in open genocide. The war left Eastern Europe scoured bare, starving and the population denuded. Resisting the Soviet Union post-war would have been like first fighting an heavyweight champion boxer to the distance, and _then_ having to begin a second match. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2024, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/136 "2024-12-16T18:30:56Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Resisting the Soviet Union post-war would have been like first fighting an heavyweight champion boxer to the distance, and _then_ having to begin a second match. Yeah but that only shows the factors that allow dictatorship have nothing to do with availability of weapons. The “fall of the iron curtain” is the establishment one of the largest blocks of long term dictatorships in all human history and it coincided with the highest available of civilian firearms in history. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2024, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/137 "2024-12-16T19:31:18Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And as I mentioned earlier Sddam Hussein never bothers with gun control in Iraq; it was the Americans who imposed it. Similarly, Hitler didn’t disarm the German people; the occupying Allies did after the war. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2024, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/138 "2024-12-16T20:41:47Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > The “fall of the iron curtain” By which I mean the _raising_ of the iron curtain, not fall 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/139 "2024-12-17T01:24:43Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Yeah but that only shows the factors that allow dictatorship have nothing to do with availability of weapons. I don’t think a worst-case scenario for a civilian partisan resistance can fairly be considered proof of arms being irrelevant. I would view arms as “necessary but not sufficient”. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915/140 "2024-12-17T03:13:28Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > "necessary but not sufficient”. Indeed. Going back to the Thread Title and OP, there is another element at play here. Notice the phrase “true dictatorship” and wonder if you hear Scotsmen arguing. Because you will have a lot of people who, if you do not wind up with a fully totalitarian state but just an Illiberal Republic run by one single family or party "machine , but where _they_ are not being particularly abused directly, will say it’s not a dictatorship and not tyranny so nothing to rebel against. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-have-a-true-dictatorship-in-a-country-with-more-guns-than-people/1009915.md?page=8)