# Could you kill someone in self-defense? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 8, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487 "2005-06-08T18:44:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/61 "2005-06-10T23:52:12Z")
I think people’s self-preservation kicks in pretty darn strongly. My mom’s cousin said she was able to lift things when her house flooded she normally would never have attempted, and that’s not a life or death situation. Once my mom came home to find two guys at the back door that we commonly used. They gave some jive story and then swung at her with a screwdriver, only managing to scratch her head. She screamed for my brother in the front, and he came tearing around and chased the guys to their plateless car. One of them swung a fist at him, and he’s not sure if it missed or if the adrenalin overwhelmed his pain. I suspect it missed, but he confronted them unarmed because his mother was in danger. I think most people would have quite a violent reaction if they thought there was something they could do. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/62 "2005-06-10T23:53:35Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > I am also finding it interesting that people think they would feel no remorse or hesitation if they feel the person basically needs killing. You see, I’ve _thought_ about it. In detail. In advance. I have no demons about the subject, because I _know_ what constitutes a justifiable killing, and what does not. I’ve been trained, and educated, by professionals. I’ve taken my soul out, and turned it over, and looked at it closely IRT this subject. IOW, I have prepared, in advance, and have made my decisions. I have no worries about the decision… The only question remains is whether or not I’ll ever have a need to act on that decision. So, when you suggest it’s potentially sociopathic, I look back on my history and snort in amusement - You’ve judged me, and yet have no clue about how I came to be where I am. ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/63 "2005-06-11T01:01:07Z")
I am sorry if I gave the impression that I’d be callous to the killing of another human. I doubt seriously if that would be the case. What I meant is that I would not hesitate over value judgements and such with a serious threat to my family. I don’t think I’d feel remorse. I feel it is my responsibility to protect those close to me and, though I’d regret that the situation had been thrust upon me and that it required the ending of a persons life, I’d more likely feel satisfaction at not failing those who mean the world to me. Remorse is: If I failed them. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/64 "2005-06-11T05:25:25Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > You see, I’ve _thought_ about it. In detail. In advance. I have no demons about the subject, because I _know_ what constitutes a justifiable killing, and what does not. I’ve been trained, and educated, by professionals. I’ve taken my soul out, and turned it over, and looked at it closely IRT this subject. > > IOW, I have prepared, in advance, and have made my decisions. I have no worries about the decision… The only question remains is whether or not I’ll ever have a need to act on that decision. > > So, when you suggest it’s potentially sociopathic, I look back on my history and snort in amusement - You’ve judged me, and yet have no clue about how I came to be where I am. I don’t mean this to be condescending, but I don’t doubt that you think you’re prepared; I still think that the reality of having killed another human being is like nothing we can possibly imagine. It’s like what people say about having kids - they almost universally say they had no idea what it would _really_ be like, until they actually had them. If you could truly be prepared for killing someone, wouldn’t police officers and soldiers, who are both prepared more than anyone else in society to take a life, be able to do it without remorse? Yet even they don’t. From [this](http://www.heavybadge.com/silly.htm) site: > [@](#): > > The fact that she [a police officer] took a human life, the guilt entailed with that, the second guessing, the anger at the person she shot for making her kill him, even the anger at the other officer for not shooting first were all brought up and dealt with. From [this](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/heart/themes/prep.html) site: > [@](#): > > What effect does the act of killing have on soldiers? Is it a major contributor to PTSD? > > Killing is a stressor. It’s a traumatic event. People have a natural aversion to killing other human beings. We would consider anybody who didn’t have that aversion to be mentally ill. This is actually a very interesting site. It does make the distinction that a lot of you here are making - that if you feel the killing was completely justified, there is a lot less guilt involved. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/65 "2005-06-11T05:43:53Z")
I wonder how many of the ones who are really badly affected by doing so were not really honest with themselves and secretly thought that they would never have to kill someone. Those of us who have either done it, or really thought out what we would do in different circumstances I think on average would have less after effects or at least less on average. ---
**Author:** ![Tamryne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3e96dc/32.png) [@Tamryne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamryne)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/66 "2005-06-11T06:33:43Z")
Id shoot to kill. I would regret it afterwards, but staying alive is higher up on my list than preserving the sanctity of human life. Of course, I would probably be shaking so bad that I would miss the intruder and he would rush me and I’d end up dead anyways. Call me paranoid, but since I am against having guns I keep both a nice size knife and a smaller dagger beside my bed, both sharp enough that running your thumb down the edge is highly discouraged. So if an intruder came in with a knife, I would wait for him to come close enough for me to use mine. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/67 "2005-06-11T06:36:11Z")
You mean I cant open with a bullet in his rotator cup of the arm holding the knife folloed by a second to his other rotator cup…followed by a couple to his hip joints…then maybe his kneecaps? ok maybe thats a bit to much, but as others have posted. anyone who shows clear intent to harm another and dies as a result was BEGGING to die. beyond that, killing some one like that is a favor to society as a whole. you are protecting you and yours, both in the family and in the comunity. as for remorse and being a sociopath wtf? a Sociopath is capable of killing pretty much anyone with no remorse. if you could kill in self defense, Especially within the rules of the op then whats to feel remorse about, you knew he was going to kill you, there are zero questions about the intruders intent and nothing to second guess. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/68 "2005-06-11T14:00:48Z")
During the incident I described in post #21 I was calm, and focused. After the bad guys left and while I was waiting for the cops, I did have an emotional reaction. My hands shook so bad I could not hold the wrench I picked up. By the time the cops left, my emotions were back to normal, and I was able to continue work. If I were forced to kill someone in defense of my life or someone elses, would I have an emotional response? Of course. Probably way worse than what I went through at that gas station. Would I regret the killing? I would reget that the the dead guy was so dumb that he thought that I would not defend myself. I however would not regret being alive. If someone wants to take my life, they will have to take it. I will be damned if I hand it to them on a silver platter. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/69 "2005-06-11T15:08:14Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > I don’t mean this to be condescending, but I don’t doubt that you think you’re prepared; I still think that the reality of having killed another human being is like nothing we can possibly imagine. It’s like what people say about having kids - they almost universally say they had no idea what it would _really_ be like, until they actually had them. I’ve had a gun stuffed in my face before. I didn’t freeze. You still don’t have a clue how I got to be where I am. And yes, you are condescending. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/70 "2005-06-11T18:23:22Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > During the incident I described in post #21 I was calm, and focused. After the bad guys left and while I was waiting for the cops, I did have an emotional reaction. My hands shook so bad I could not hold the wrench I picked up. > By the time the cops left, my emotions were back to normal, and I was able to continue work. AFAIK, that doesn’t have to be an emotional reaction. You had nothing to do with your adrenaline. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/71 "2005-06-12T00:03:51Z")
Hmmm… premise of perfect knowledge,eh? Yes. Would kill in self-defense. Once again, there’s _perfect knowledge_ so I have no doubt what needs be done. As to aftermath – _regret_ that it had to come to that, yes, absolutely. It’s an undesirable situation and circumstances obviously were bad enough to leave me without freedom of choice as to my actions. Probably at risk for PTSD? Yeah, I can see that. But _remorse_? No. Given perfect knowledge of justifiable self-defense, my use of deadly force would incur no moral violation; I’d be guilt-free. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/72 "2005-06-12T02:05:24Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > I’ve had a gun stuffed in my face before. I didn’t freeze. > You still don’t have a clue how I got to be where I am. And yes, you are condescending. Perhaps you should tell us how you got to be where you are. And maybe tell me what you find condescending about what I’m saying here - what I think I’m saying is that nobody knows how they’ll react until they are actually in a situation, regardless of training. **JRDelirious** , what do you think causes Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, if not remorse and guilt? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/73 "2005-06-12T04:59:24Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > **JRDelirious** , what do you think causes Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, if not remorse and guilt? There could be shock, fear, and horror without remorse or guilt, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/74 "2005-06-12T09:44:25Z")
Yes. Maybe I’d sleep badly afterwards (hell, probably!). But I’d be alive. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/75 "2005-06-12T14:20:25Z")
I would shoot. I’m very good under pressure. Perhaps my best. It’s not bravado, it’s just me. Aside – I once saw a person throw-up because her car got stuck in the snow (she wasn’t drunk, just nervous or scared or something). I really don’t know how some folks make it to the next day. Regret? Remorse? I don’t know. Those aren’t the words I would use. I’m sure I would feel different. I don’t like killing mice. Would I defend myself with deadly force? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/76 "2005-06-12T15:55:45Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > **JRDelirious** , what do you think causes Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, if not remorse and guilt? **jsgoddess** answered for me. PTSD affects, for instance, firefighters, who have done nothing morally questionable or caused the situation, but who have looked at their own death right in the eye and have seen _others’_ bad, ugly, deaths. OTOH, I’m a bit put off that even though I openly admit that even with perfect knowledge that I’m doing a _necessary_ (notice: not a “right” or a “good”, a _necessary_) thing for my own survival, I would recognize it was an undesirable thing to happen (regret) and be badly shaken up by the experience, maybe even to the point of illness (PTSD), you seem to demand that those of us who admit that must do so in a manner that, to me, implies accepting some sort of Moral Guilt. Not gonna do so. Remember, and I keep hammering on this issue, that the example concerned presupposes _perfect knowledge_: I’d **know** for a fact that the assailant WILL kill me if I do not use deadly force to stop him. Though a sad and unsought course of action, it’s a necessary one, justified except under the most pacifist ethics. BTW, just in case someone brings it up: so-called “survivor’s guilt” does not apply in the OP case – it’s natural for an empathetic human to cry out “why him and not me” if someone close to you, or a complete innocent, perishes and you were helpless to prevent it. But even then it’s not the same thing as moral guilt. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/77 "2005-06-12T18:09:03Z")
Hey now, don’t be getting all bent out of shape by reading things into my post that weren’t there. My question was serious; I honestly wanted to know what you thought caused PTSD if not guilt and remorse. **jsgoddess’** answer gave me some food for thought, that you can have a very traumatic experience without guilt and remorse. I think there is _usually_ an element of guilt and remorse in something bad enough to cause PTSD, even if it is just blaming yourself for getting yourself into that situation in the first place, but I can see your point that it doesn’t have to be part of PTSD. And I will keep saying that human beings have a very deep aversion to killing another human being, under any circumstances, no matter how justified. Some people will do it without guilt and remorse; a whole lot more will do it _with_ guilt and remorse; some won’t do it at all. Why is this concept bugging you guys so much? (Another honest, not loaded question.) ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/78 "2005-06-12T20:13:33Z")
**featherlou** , I do understand that you meant your original question to be honest, and unloaded. But I, too, thought it had been loaded when I first read it. (Besides, what’s the point of an unloaded question, anyways? Isn’t that about as useful as an unloaded gun or glass? ;)) Seriously, while I agree with you that > [@featherlou](#): > > Some people will do it without guilt and remorse; a whole lot more will do it _with_ guilt and remorse; some won’t do it at all. I also think that most of the people in this thread, especially those of us who have faced this question or one similar in real life, are going to be giving answers that are as accurate as they can manage. No one enjoys being corrected, no matter how polite and diffedent the correction might be. And given the apparant tone of your original question, it’s not really surprising that many people took it to be a challenge. Again, I’m not trying to say you meant it as one - just that it’s understandable to have been received as one. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/79 "2005-06-12T20:22:43Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > And I will keep saying that human beings have a very deep aversion to killing another human being, under any circumstances, no matter how justified. You’re joking, right? Or have you just not been awake for the last 10,000 years of human history. Human life, for 99.99% of human existance, has been very cheap. It has only been very recently, and very locallly that reverance for human life has existed. Read a history book, why don’t you? You’ll see just how many billions have died for so little remorse on the part of anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487/80 "2005-06-12T21:23:00Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > \I also think that most of the people in this thread, especially those of us who have faced this question or one similar in real life, are going to be giving answers that are as accurate as they can manage. \ Good points, **Otaku and silenus** (and no, I haven’t been awake for the last 10,000 years of history - only 38 of them 😃 ). It almost sounds like you’re saying _my_ reverence for human life is unusual. I’ve been arguing from the point of view that everyone values life as much as I do because I assumed everyone did; I’m thinking that assumption was erroneous now. But people talk like they value human life; they act like their children being killed is the worst thing that could possibly happen. Do they not extrapolate that another human being is someone _else’s_ child? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-kill-someone-in-self-defense/307487.md?page=5)