# Could you knock out an enraged chimp?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [July 7, 2010, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830 "2010-07-07T08:20:07Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 14
### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [July 16, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/261 "2010-07-16T19:32:38Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#):
>
> They’re heavily padded to keep the knuckles from breaking, so you can throw punches full force without having to worry about your hands. Percentage of knockouts went up when boxing gloves were introduced.
Regardless of the reason of the padding it greatly reduces the transmission of kinetic energy through the skull. A conventional boxing punch is designed to accelerate the brain. It is a different form of damage.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [July 16, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/262 "2010-07-16T19:34:59Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#):
>
> He also said that if you wear boxing gloves, the gloves “will eliminate the transmission of energy from the knuckles”. Again, not true no matter how you torture the physics.
You are not going to be able to punch a brick in half with boxing gloves on.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)
#### Post date: [July 16, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/263 "2010-07-16T19:44:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> You are not going to be able to punch a brick in half with boxing gloves on.
Best I could find on short notice: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiMzBwTNOEE](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiMzBwTNOEE).
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [July 16, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/264 "2010-07-16T19:48:25Z")
> [@GHO57](#):
>
> If you hit someone on the head with a two fisted punch, you’re preventing the head movement, thus eliminating the main cause of brain damage. Furthermore, the human skull is designed to direct forces along the perimeter to protect the brain, the force from one fist mostly travels from one side of the head to the other fist, effectively canceling the force. Now, that is an idealized case. In reality the bones of the skull will deform to some extent, and the punches won’t be equal forced or timed… some of the energy will be expended as heat, noise and compressing tissue at the impact points and your fists.
>
> Still, it’s less power, and majority of that power is directed at your other fist. This is where they compare to the two cars colliding example… the only way it would be effective technique is, if you had the sheer power to crush the skull and deliver all of the force directly to the brain. In fact, ANY damage to the brain in your super-punch requires you to seriously compromise the structure of the skull. To cause a compression wave in the cranial fluid, your fist would need to contact it directly… I.e, a piece of the skull the size of your fist would need to detach and move inside the head. And hell, if you can actually punch STRAIGHT THROUGH a skull… with just your arm strength…why mess about with doubling up, just punch through the ribcage (weaker structure) and rip out the heart.
>
> We done here?
The skull will transfer small amounts of energy from side to side up to a point. It’s only 1/4 inch of bone. The impact of a knuckle is a focal point on that 1/4 inch of bone and will compress the skull enough to transmit the energy into the soft tissue. Unlike a gloved hand, a bare knuckle punch is a very focused event. I’ve personally seen people knocked out with a single jab to the head (no body weight). A knuckle to the temple or side of the head is very effective.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)
#### Post date: [July 16, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/265 "2010-07-16T19:55:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> I’ve personally seen people knocked out with a single jab to the head (no body weight).
Jabs are thrown with body weight, unless you’re doing it wrong. It’s a subtle movement that you might miss unless you’ve learned how to box, but it’s there. Read Dempsey’s book on boxing ([available free online](http://zinelibrary.info/files/Championship%20Fighting%20by%20Jack%20Dempsey%20(1950).pdf)) if you want to learn how a jab is thrown and how to get your body weight into it.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)
#### Post date: [July 16, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/266 "2010-07-16T20:09:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> The skull will transfer small amounts of energy from side to side up to a point. It’s only 1/4 inch of bone. The impact of a knuckle is a focal point on that 1/4 inch of bone and will compress the skull enough to transmit the energy into the soft tissue. Unlike a gloved hand, a bare knuckle punch is a very focused event.
Unfortunately, the knuckles are supported by the metacarpals, which are very small and weak bones. Punching with a bare fist is like swinging a hammer which has a glass handle. I would be happy to bet that the metacarpals would break before the skull did. The reason people can break bricks with their hands is because the bricks are set so they can be easily broken–if the brick didn’t break, the bones of the hand would.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)
#### Post date: [July 16, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/267 "2010-07-16T20:28:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> Regardless of the reason of the padding it greatly reduces the transmission of kinetic energy through the skull. A conventional boxing punch is designed to accelerate the brain. It is a different form of damage.
I can buy “reduce,” though in the real world the ability to hit harder without breaking your hand more than makes up for the reduction in kinetic energy. “Greatly reduce” is probably wrong-boxing gloves aren’t as soft as you seem to think they are. Also note that you didn’t initially say “reduce,” you said eliminate.
So, let’s make sure we understand each other. Please rate the following in likelihood of ability to cause a knockout:
1. Single hand punch with no body weight behind it
2. Your double hand punch
3. Boxing-style single-hand punch with all your body weight behind it.
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### Author:  [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)
#### Post date: [July 16, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/268 "2010-07-16T20:29:25Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#):
>
> Read Dempsey’s book on boxing ([available free online](http://zinelibrary.info/files/Championship%20Fighting%20by%20Jack%20Dempsey%20(1950).pdf)) if you want to learn how a jab is thrown and how to get your body weight into it.
Excellent book, by the way - Bruce Lee based a lot of his ideas on the Jeet Kune Do straight lead on it.
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### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [July 16, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/269 "2010-07-16T20:39:56Z")
MMA (actually called No Holds Barred or NHB back in those days) was fought for a brief time in the United States and for many many years in Brazil (called vale tudo) without gloves.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)
#### Post date: [July 16, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/270 "2010-07-16T20:56:48Z")
> [@Cisco](#):
>
> MMA (actually called No Holds Barred or NHB back in those days) was fought for a brief time in the United States and for many many years in Brazil (called vale tudo) without gloves.
I started watching it back then. In the first event I saw, three people broke their hands.
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### Author:  [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)
#### Post date: [July 16, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/271 "2010-07-16T22:59:56Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#):
>
> Actually I think you’ll find that you can.
Okay, you CAN but any weight you put into the follow-through will be too late. I’ve seen people break suspended boards with blows that look like they’re flicking water off their hands, and I don’t understand where the power comes from. A bilateral strike seems both awkward and weak to me but I wouldn’t bet my life that someone somewhere hasn’t used it effectively - probably one of the one-inch punch people.
> [@Evil\_Economist](#):
>
> And in terms of being wrong about the physics, he stated that with a single hand punch didn’t cause these longitudinal waves because “that force is absorbed in the deflection of the object struck”. I can’t think of any physics argument that would make that true.
Substitute 'acceleration" for “deflection” and see if that works for you. Alternatively, try bursting a balloon by punching it in the air, and then hold it against a wall and try again. He’s simply saying that you can get a greater impact force when you hit something that can’t move away under the impact, and he’s right. That said, I’ve already argued that a head is heavy enough and a neck restrictive enough that we should see the “shockwave effect” with hard one-hand punches, if it exists.
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### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [July 16, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/272 "2010-07-16T23:17:28Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#):
>
> I started watching it back then. In the first event I saw, three people broke their hands.
How many people threw the deadly double shockwave punch?
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)
#### Post date: [July 16, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/273 "2010-07-16T23:51:04Z")
> [@matt](#):
>
> Okay, you CAN but any weight you put into the follow-through will be too late. I’ve seen people break suspended boards with blows that look like they’re flicking water off their hands, and I don’t understand where the power comes from.
Instead of thinking of a punch, try thinking of a thrown baseball, like someone suggested upthread. Suppose you want to break a suspended board with a baseball. If you hold your body rigid (glue your shoulder and back to a wall) and then throw the baseball at it, it probably won’t break. Now try ungluing yourself, getting a windup, putting your shoulders and hips into the throw, and step into the throw. This time the baseball will probably shatter the board. Same thing with punching. You have a shoulder twirl, a falling step, etc (described in Dempsey’s book I linked to earlier)–that’s how you get your weight into a punch. You modify the _m_ in _F=ma_ (and the _a_ too, since you can add them up). The weight doesn’t come in the follow-through, it comes at the instant the punch lands. If you think getting your weight into a punch only affects the follow-through, then you’re doing it wrong.
> [@](#):
>
> A bilateral strike seems both awkward and weak to me but I wouldn’t bet my life that someone somewhere hasn’t used it effectively - probably one of the one-inch punch people.
A one-inch punch is a simple demonstration of getting your weight into a punch. The power comes from moving your mass in the direction of the punch, not from the arm movement. A boxer will do the same thing every time he throws an in-close punch; it just took a martial artist to turn it into something mystical.
> [@](#):
>
> Substitute 'acceleration" for “deflection” and see if that works for you. Alternatively, try bursting a balloon by punching it in the air, and then hold it against a wall and try again. He’s simply saying that you can get a greater impact force when you hit something that can’t move away under the impact, and he’s right. That said, I’ve already argued that a head is heavy enough and a neck restrictive enough that we should see the “shockwave effect” with hard one-hand punches, if it exists.
But he went all the way. He used terms like “never” and “eliminate,” which is simply wrong. I would have been fine if he’d said there’d be a “lesser impact” if the head wasn’t fixed, but that’s simply not what he said.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)
#### Post date: [July 16, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/274 "2010-07-16T23:53:07Z")
> [@Cisco](#):
>
> How many people threw the deadly double shockwave punch?
At first all of them, but the chimp bodies started to pile-up so they outlawed it.
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### Author:  [@EVIL\_COW\_PIE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EVIL_COW_PIE)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/275 "2010-07-17T02:34:47Z")
> [@matt](#):
>
> He’s simply saying that you can get a greater impact force when you hit something that can’t move away under the impact, and he’s right.
This is not right. He started this by saying a double punch was a more effective way to knock someone (or a chimp) out which is a different thing all together. He was wrong about that because he didn’t understand the DNA of a KO. Now he’s back pedaling and talking about physics and transference. Further his stance that the a double punch transfers twice the power of a single punch is true only if all things are equal. The problem is the the contortionist nature of a double punch to the head of an opponent standing in front of you doesn’t allow you to generate enough power in either hand to match the power of a one hand punch with your body weight behind it. Indeed, the combined power of each hand won’t even come close to the power generated from a single punch with body weight behind it. This doesn’t even take into account the kinetic energy built up from a single punch due to it’s longer arc which translates into greater speed. Think of hitting something with a hammer held in your hand versus swinging it around you head on a three foot rope then hitting something.
His “physics show that two punches are twice as powerful as one” is bullshit because he leaves out many aspects of the equation.
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### Author:  [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/276 "2010-07-17T03:13:57Z")
> [@GHO57](#):
>
> … Brain damage invariably occurs with rapid deceleration of the head forcing the brain to collide against the inside of the skull. Oftentimes the damage appears on the opposite side of the initial impact; if the blow is severe enough, on both sides of the brain. …
>
> We done here?
No, no link to Wiki on [coup/contrecoup brain injuries](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_contrecoup_injury)!
CMC fnord!
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### Author:  [@GHO57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GHO57)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/277 "2010-07-17T03:26:19Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#):
>
> No, no link to Wiki on [coup/contrecoup brain injuries](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_contrecoup_injury)!
>
> CMC fnord!
Egads… why is that thin man banging his head on the wall repeatedly?
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### Author:  [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/278 "2010-07-17T03:52:09Z")
> [@EVIL\_COW\_PIE](#):
>
> His “physics show that two punches are twice as powerful as one” is bullshit because he leaves out many aspects of the equation.
Not to mention having to get much closer for a ‘two handed punch’, and putting yourself in a bad position for defence or balance.
A lucky roundhouse haymaker might do the trick. Probably break your hand though.
Put on a motorcycle helmet. Then hit yourself as hard as you can on both sides at the same time. You won’t feel much. Hit yourself as hard as you can on one side, you will feel it.
Or an easier experiment. Sit in an armchair. Bump your hands at the same time on the outsides of each arm rest. Your body will not feel a jolt. Hit just one arm rest and you will feel the jolt.
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### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2010, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/279 "2010-07-17T03:59:50Z")
> [@enipla](#):
>
> Not to mention having to get much closer for a ‘two handed punch’, and putting yourself in a bad position for defence or balance.
>
> A lucky roundhouse haymaker might do the trick. Probably break your hand though.
>
> Put on a motorcycle helmet. Then hit yourself as hard as you can on both sides at the same time. You won’t feel much. Hit yourself as hard as you can on one side, you will feel it.
>
> Or an easier experiment. Sit in an armchair. Bump your hands at the same time on the outsides of each arm rest. Your body will not feel a jolt. Hit just one arm rest and you will feel the jolt.
You’re not accounting for Ninja Shockwaves™.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2010, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/280 "2010-07-17T04:54:16Z")
> [@matt](#):
>
> Okay, you CAN but any weight you put into the follow-through will be too late. I’ve seen people break suspended boards with blows that look like they’re flicking water off their hands, and I don’t understand where the power comes from. A bilateral strike seems both awkward and weak to me but I wouldn’t bet my life that someone somewhere hasn’t used it effectively - probably one of the one-inch punch people.
Mohamed Ali would throw a backhand punch and whip his wrist to accelerate it to great affect.
> [@matt](#):
>
> Substitute 'acceleration" for “deflection” and see if that works for you. Alternatively, try bursting a balloon by punching it in the air, and then hold it against a wall and try again. He’s simply saying that you can get a greater impact force when you hit something that can’t move away under the impact, and he’s right. That said, I’ve already argued that a head is heavy enough and a neck restrictive enough that we should see the “shockwave effect” with hard one-hand punches, if it exists.
As I’ve said before, I’ve seen people tagged with a very innocuous looking jab to the head. I know it’s possible to knock someone out without the force generated by a professional boxer.
The skull is only 1/4 inch think piece of bone and it loses some of the dome structural integrity in the flattened sides. For discussion purposes I would expect a nominal strike speed of 10 mph. that energy would be focused on a 1/2 inch knuckle. I would expect that to be more than enough to compress the skull and transmit the kinetic energy into the brain.
What would help the argument either way is if I knew why the caps of water bottles are cored out on impact. Clearly the design of the bottle plays a major role in the event.
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