# Could you knock out an enraged chimp?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [July 7, 2010, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830 "2010-07-07T08:20:07Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@Animastryfe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Animastryfe)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/81 "2010-07-10T19:52:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> The leverage generated behind a single punch is dissipated by the head as it moves away. It is simple physics which is not up for debate.
But you haven’t demonstrated that the benefits of not moving the head makes up for the greatly increased (and if you’ve done boxing, then you’ll know how much greater) power of a punch caused by usage of the whole body rather than just the arm, and the brain damage and concussion caused by the brain sloshing around.
---
### Author:  [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/82 "2010-07-10T20:01:33Z")
Door keys between knuckles, punch chimp in the eyes, hope for best.
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### Author:  [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/83 "2010-07-10T20:08:16Z")
ps. IOW, don’t even think about trying to knock it out. You’ll only annoy it.
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### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/84 "2010-07-10T20:14:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> The leverage generated behind a single punch is dissipated by the head as it moves away. It is simple physics which is not up for debate.
Yeah, we get it. Your physics model is still wrong. With your Three Stooges Manuever, you only get the power from both your arms tapping. Even combined, it’s a fraction of the power of a single punch with a person’s entire mass behind it.
Also, you WANT the head to move away. Unless you think you can hit hard enough to crack a man’s skull, just tapping on it with your fists is not going to do much other than annoy him. You want the brain to slosh around inside the head.
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> It is the difference between striking a nail suspended from a string with a 20 lb sledge hammer and striking a nail into wood with a small hammer. The small hammer will deform the head of the nail with the slightest blow. All the kinetic energy is transmitted.
It’s always transmitted. Newton’s Law and all.
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> You can demonstrate it on yourself quite easily. lightly strike your jaw with one hand/knuckle (not even the effort put into a hard applause clap) and repeat with the same force using both hands. Consider how many times you can multiple the energy of that blow. It takes nothing to break both sides of the jaw.
Now punch yourself in the face as hard as you can.
---
### Author:  [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/85 "2010-07-10T20:37:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> The leverage generated behind a single punch is dissipated by the head as it moves away. It is simple physics which is not up for debate.
That dissipation as the head moves away is what causes a knock-out which is what this thread is about. What you are claiming goes against the thousands of real life examples anyone, including yourself, can see by going to YouTube. Did you watch the videos **Cisco** linked for you?
I’m afraid I too must wish you good day.
---
### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/86 "2010-07-10T20:43:02Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> Yeah, we get it. Your physics model is still wrong. With your Three Stooges Manuever, you only get the power from both your arms tapping. Even combined, it’s a fraction of the power of a single punch with a person’s entire mass behind it.
No it’s not a fraction of the power. It’s the same muscle power absent the accelerated motion of the body. Again, none of the energy is absorbed by deflection and the force is multiplied by 2. Trying to attach the words “three stooges” is a poor debate tactic.
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> Also, you WANT the head to move away. Unless you think you can hit hard enough to crack a man’s skull, just tapping on it with your fists is not going to do much other than annoy him. You want the brain to slosh around inside the head.
Again, you’re trying to minimize the force generated by the arm muscles with words like “tapping”. Nothing is getting tapped. It’s a punch, multiplied by 2.
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> It’s always transmitted. Newton’s Law and all.
and the deflected motion absorbs the energy just like a shock absorber.
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### Author:  [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/87 "2010-07-10T21:27:21Z")
/slight hijack
I have no idea if this is a true story, and I’m posting it only because this thread reminded me of it. Perhaps someone can tell us if any of this is possible (I have my doubts, but who knows?)
When I was a teenager, a neighbor of mine told me a story about my uncle. Now, this man had no reason to lie to me, and as far as I know, he never did, so with the exception of this story, I found him to be a stand up individual.
He told me a story about my uncle. According to this guy, when they were teenagers, there was a fair or traveling show of some kind that stopped in their town. One of the attractions in the show was a chimp (or some other type of primate) in a cage. People were given an opportunity to fight the animal, and if they spent X amount of time in the cage, they won a cash prize of some kind.
No one won the money, and in fact, many people were injured. My uncle then entered the cage and punched out the chimp.
I didn’t think this could be possible because of the upper body strength of primates in general. However, my neighbor swore this story was true. He also suggested I ask my uncle, which of course I did. My uncle’s reaction was odd. He didn’t deny it (he didn’t confirm it either), but he didn’t laugh it off as I expected him to. He asked me where I heard the story, and told me he didn’t want to talk about it.
Now I am not completely stupid. I thought this was two guys pulling my chain, however:
My uncle and my neighbor were not friends that I could tell. I asked my mom if she knew of any relationship between my neighbor and my uncle (her brother) and she didn’t know of any, other than they went to high school together.
I’ve never seen them at the same party or any other social event.
I couldn’t figure out why in the hell my neighbor would make something like this up, especially if he and my uncle weren’t friends. They could get a chuckle about it if they knew each other, but since it didn’t appear that they had any sort of relationship other than knowing each other from childhood, it made no sense.
I’ve always wondered if this story was even possible. So, what do the teeming millions think? Could a human punch out a monkey, orangutan, or other primate (I’m not talking about little lemurs, but a monkey of comparable height to a human)
I vote no, and chalk it up to a friendly neighbor pulling my leg. Although I never understood his motivation, that doesn’t mean he didn’t make it up just to see my reaction.
---
### Author:  [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/88 "2010-07-10T21:32:07Z")
> [@Animastryfe](#):
>
> Another video showing how strong chimps are:
>
> [Noolmusic](http://noolmusic.com/videos/sumo_wrestler_vs_female_orangutan.php)
>
> Does anyone remember a story about an early 20th century (I think) carnival/fair that employed a chimp/orangutan? Whoever could stay in the ring against it for a few minutes would win money, but all the human contenders were easily bested by the chimp/orangutan.
I just noticed this post, and wonder if this is the same thing that came through my uncle’s town… or if it’s part of the same UL?
---
### Author:  [@Animastryfe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Animastryfe)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/89 "2010-07-10T22:09:32Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#):
>
> I just noticed this post, and wonder if this is the same thing that came through my uncle’s town… or if it’s part of the same UL?
When did your uncle’s alleged incident occur? The version I heard did not include the chimp/orangutan/primate being knocked out by anyone.
---
### Author:  [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/90 "2010-07-11T01:19:46Z")
> [@Animastryfe](#):
>
> When did your uncle’s alleged incident occur? The version I heard did not include the chimp/orangutan/primate being knocked out by anyone.
I am guessing here, but based on my uncle’s age, I’d say between 1956 -1959.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/91 "2010-07-11T01:39:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> No it’s not a fraction of the power. It’s the same muscle power absent the accelerated motion of the body.
Do you not understand that the mass being accelerated also changes? There’s a reason my car analogy used a whole car v. a car door.
Muscle power contributes surprisingly little to the force of a blow; almost all the force is generated by moving the body mass in the direction of the blow.
You should also ask yourself the following two questions: 1) why does no one else agree with you (does _anyone_ else think **Magiver** is right?); and 2) why doesn’t anyone throw a two-handed strike in any combat sport.
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### Author:  [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/92 "2010-07-11T02:05:52Z")
Magiver, what we’re discussing here is the knockout, which is driven by the whiplash, not the power of the punch. So even if you were right, (which you’re not, there’s no way you can two-hand and still drive with your shoulder, much less lean in, so you’re limiting the force to your triceps and pecs) you’d still be working against achieving knockout. You might break a jaw or blow out eardrums easier your way, but it wouldn’t achieve knockout.
Now, can we please get back to the chimp? I’m supposed to take Celtling to the zoo next week and this is starting to freak me out a bit. What _SHOULD_ I do if the chimps get loose while I’m there?!?
---
### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/93 "2010-07-11T02:16:44Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#):
>
> /slight hijack
>
> I have no idea if this is a true story, and I’m posting it only because this thread reminded me of it. Perhaps someone can tell us if any of this is possible (I have my doubts, but who knows?)
>
> When I was a teenager, a neighbor of mine told me a story about my uncle. Now, this man had no reason to lie to me, and as far as I know, he never did, so with the exception of this story, I found him to be a stand up individual.
>
> He told me a story about my uncle. According to this guy, when they were teenagers, there was a fair or traveling show of some kind that stopped in their town. One of the attractions in the show was a chimp (or some other type of primate) in a cage. People were given an opportunity to fight the animal, and if they spent X amount of time in the cage, they won a cash prize of some kind.
>
> No one won the money, and in fact, many people were injured. My uncle then entered the cage and punched out the chimp.
>
> I didn’t think this could be possible because of the upper body strength of primates in general. However, my neighbor swore this story was true. He also suggested I ask my uncle, which of course I did. My uncle’s reaction was odd. He didn’t deny it (he didn’t confirm it either), but he didn’t laugh it off as I expected him to. He asked me where I heard the story, and told me he didn’t want to talk about it.
>
> Now I am not completely stupid. I thought this was two guys pulling my chain, however:
>
> My uncle and my neighbor were not friends that I could tell. I asked my mom if she knew of any relationship between my neighbor and my uncle (her brother) and she didn’t know of any, other than they went to high school together.
>
> I’ve never seen them at the same party or any other social event.
>
> I couldn’t figure out why in the hell my neighbor would make something like this up, especially if he and my uncle weren’t friends. They could get a chuckle about it if they knew each other, but since it didn’t appear that they had any sort of relationship other than knowing each other from childhood, it made no sense.
>
> I’ve always wondered if this story was even possible. So, what do the teeming millions think? Could a human punch out a monkey, orangutan, or other primate (I’m not talking about little lemurs, but a monkey of comparable height to a human)
>
> I vote no, and chalk it up to a friendly neighbor pulling my leg. Although I never understood his motivation, that doesn’t mean he didn’t make it up just to see my reaction.
I don’t know if it’s possible or not (if we knew, this thread might have been answered and died by now!), but I have a similar anecdote to add. My best friend’s grandpa was a mountain of a man. Family lore has it that he perfected the art of 1-punch KOing a mule and would do it frequently to impress people (mostly girls, if the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.) The thing that makes me kind of believe it might be true is that no one in the family ever bragged about it; they thought he was a piece of shit for doing it.
---
### Author:  [@Animastryfe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Animastryfe)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/94 "2010-07-11T02:21:11Z")
> [@TruCelt](#):
>
> Now, can we please get back to the chimp? I’m supposed to take Celtling to the zoo next week and this is starting to freak me out a bit. What _SHOULD_ I do if the chimps get loose while I’m there?!?
Well, presumably you can run faster than Celtling, right?
@ **Stink Fish Pot** : That sounds a bit too recent for the version that I heard.
---
### Author:  [@smoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smoke)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/95 "2010-07-11T02:35:06Z")
> [@julius blaze](#):
>
> The knockout occurs because the brain REBOUNDS against the part of the skull in the direction the strike came from, keeping the brain in place and not allowing it to slosh around is the LAST way to cause a knockout, the best way to break your hands on an ineffective kung fu looking strike.
Yeah, but you’ll _never_ explode your opponent’s head with a single fist.
---
### Author:  [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/96 "2010-07-11T03:06:51Z")
> [@Animastryfe](#):
>
> Well, presumably you can run faster than Celtling, right?
Not funny. Not even a little bit. . . but I see what you did there. . .
😉
---
### Author:  [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2010, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/97 "2010-07-11T07:13:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> You don’t understand the laws of physics. 100 % transmittal of energy (twice) versus having the energy of a single blow decelerated with the motion of the head. The car analogy is exactly what would happen.
You should try actually watching mma sometime, or train in boxing to understand why your physics model is wrong. As i said before, knockouts are caused by the brain REBOUNDING back into the skull. If the brain stays in one place as your stupid double strike example, knockouts become MUCH harder/rarer.
Secondly, a double strike is by definition an “arm punch” which is by definition bad form because you cannot twist or use your hips at all. I bet you can punch with a double arm punch, MAYBE AT MAX, 15% as hard as you can with one fist with your full body behind it.
You should read some articles about why knockouts happen since you definitely don’t have a good grasp of why they occur (in humans, at least).
---
### Author:  [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2010, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/98 "2010-07-11T12:16:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> It is the difference between striking a nail suspended from a string with a 20 lb sledge hammer and striking a nail into wood with a small hammer. The small hammer will deform the head of the nail with the slightest blow. All the kinetic energy is transmitted.
>
> You can demonstrate it on yourself quite easily. lightly strike your jaw with one hand/knuckle (not even the effort put into a hard applause clap) and repeat with the same force using both hands. Consider how many times you can multiple the energy of that blow. It takes nothing to break both sides of the jaw.
Your observation about the nail is of course correct, but the analogy doesn’t really apply to a punch to the skull. A better analogy would be a loose egg in a metal box suspended from a string. Hit the box from both sides; all the KE goes into the impact but is absorbed by the box (and hammer heads) and leaves the egg undamaged. Hit the box from one side, the sudden acceleration makes it smack into the egg and break it. Your manouvre may indeed put more KE into a head than a straight punch (debatable) but I don’t buy that the energy ends up in the brain. Instead I suggest that it ends up in the skull, the brain’s natural crash helmet, and it takes a HARD punch to crack a skull. I think your hands would suffer more!
I can personally testify that a single-sided head blow can knock you out without so much as leaving a bruise or sore spot. A caveman in a LARP game once hit me with a foam rubber club about the same size as me and put me out for around 30 seconds. Conversely a skull-fracturing impact can _fail_ to knock someone out, as anyone who works in a hospital accident and emergency department can tell you.
The only useful bilateral two-handed strike I’m aware of is with cupped hands to the ears, driving air into them. It’s reportly extremely painful and quite dangerous, but I bet it wouldn’t help at all against a chimp.
---
### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/99 "2010-07-11T14:01:26Z")
\*\*Magiver \*\*- I think it’s been explained to you several times why you are incorrect. At this point I’m content to let you wallow in ignorance.
Good luck fighting that enranged chimp.
---
### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-knock-out-an-enraged-chimp/545830/100 "2010-07-11T23:52:55Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> \*\*Magiver \*\*- I think it’s been explained to you several times why you are incorrect. At this point I’m content to let you wallow in ignorance.
>
> Good luck fighting that enranged chimp.
The explanation is wrong. the damage done by my method has nothing to do with the MMF example. I’m talking about imparting a double shock wave. It has nothing to do with the brain moving side to side. I don’t know what is so hard to understand about this. It is twice the force of punching a person in the head with the head against a solid surface. ALL of the kinetic energy passes through the skull and into the soft tissue of the brain, TWICE. Just like the energy of a ball in a [Newton’s Cradle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_cradle). It is the reason a hammer deforms the head of a nail going into wood instead of the forward motion of a free floating nail.
If the head doesn’t move, ALL of the energy is transmitted to the brain. It’s the same as if the skull wasn’t there and you hit the brain itself. It is the same laws of physics in play when a depth charge goes off near a submarine or a shaped charge warhead is used on a tank. It is the transfer of energy that destroys the object. By striking from opposite directions with the same amount of force you ensure the force of both strikes is completely transmitted to the object which in this case is soft brain tissue.
What part of this don’t you understand?
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