# Could you legally refuse to serve someone who consistently refused to tip? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 28, 2008, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-legally-refuse-to-serve-someone-who-consistently-refused-to-tip/465613 "2008-09-28T20:48:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-legally-refuse-to-serve-someone-who-consistently-refused-to-tip/465613/21 "2008-09-29T20:46:33Z")
Heh. “Only Denny’s I ever saw with a cover charge…” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-legally-refuse-to-serve-someone-who-consistently-refused-to-tip/465613/22 "2008-09-29T22:01:23Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Okay, then call it a “delivery surcharge.” Surely if it’s legal to refuse service to addresses with a bad history, it would be legal to offer to serve them at a higher price. Why bother? It’s most likely just going to result in a huge fight with a customer, lots of people if they are told they are being given a “delivery surcharge” for being bad customers are going to flip shit and not pay for whatever it is they have ordered. I guess you could try and tack on the charge “discreetly” but at the very least that could blow up in your face and at worst that could possibly even be illegal (it will definitely give your business a bad reputation if word gets out that you are trying to covertly charge certain customers more than others.) In this situation that easiest solution is to simply not do business with the bad customer. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-legally-refuse-to-serve-someone-who-consistently-refused-to-tip/465613/23 "2008-09-29T22:06:30Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > If the tip is discretionary, it should be discretionary. > That means if you don’t want to pay it, you don’t have to. > > If it’s not discretionary, make it a service charge, or just put the prices up by 10-15% and give the staff the extra money. > > If you _have_ to pay, it’s not a tip, it’s a fee. > > While you could refuse service on any grounds you like, since the person has paid the requested fee for the services you deliver I’m not sure what would be gained from refusing to serve them in the future. I sort of wish tipping wasn’t predominant in the States, but it is, and I see little opportunity to change it. As it stands now at a lot of restaurants servers make something like $3.00/hour (I can’t remember the exact number anymore, I believe it’s typically something like 50% of minimum wage) in base pay and can make upwards of $20-25 an hour at peak. It’s not entirely uncommon for a server at a busy restaurant that has moderately priced meals to make $100 a night. How high would most business be willing to pay these individuals? Well, dish washing is a much, much, much worse job than serving. Anyone who has ever worked cleaning dishes at a busy restaurant (and I have) can tell you that it’s easily harder than being a server, and most places I’m familiar with it pays $10-12/hour (which for an 8 hour shift would be ~$90.) Over the long run, most servers won’t go for that because on good nights they make a good bit more than the dishwashers. But at the same time most restaurants design their business around paying servers a low rate of pay and don’t want to have to fundamentally change that. Yes, they **could** , but it’s basically “cutting against the grain” in the restaurant industry. And many experienced servers just aren’t going to want to work somewhere where they don’t feel they can directly contribute to their nightly take-home. Another big thing is a lot of these people like the fact that tips are often taken home the night you’ve earned them. Whereas the hourly people only get paid once a week at the most. I’ve known a lot of people who worked as waitstaff who _needed_ the nightly income to support their extra-curriculars (I am talking from a 30-year old frame of reference but from what I’ve seen of today’s restaurant workers I don’t think I’m too off base on this.) ---
**Author:** ![cavedonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df788c/32.png) [@cavedonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cavedonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-legally-refuse-to-serve-someone-who-consistently-refused-to-tip/465613/24 "2008-09-30T01:32:28Z")
> [@astro](#): > > While it might not be smart business practice, can a business refuse service to anyone so long as it does not violate state or federal race, creed, color etc. anti-discrimination guidelines? > > If a patron refused to tip for even the best service could a restaurant legally show him the door? Lots of grey area in that whole, “We reserve the right to refuse anyone…” sign… Actually, the sign itself is immaterial – All restaurants (and similar public businesses) have the same rights and rules regardless of having a sign – and it’s pretty misleading on that matter. A tip (or gratuity) is not required by any law I’m familiar with (key words here; things can be different depending on local laws). So, refusal of service because someone just didn’t "do something that you don’t like or agree with” wouldn’t hold up in court. Of course, the customer might not know this (or care) and oblige you anyway. Or, and just as ambiguously, you could come up with any of several reasons other than “poor tip” to refuse someone service. But, just be sure you have these accusations backed up in the (unlikely) event that the customer has issue with this and wants to pursue legal action (I’m led to believe courts are big on documentation, not so much on hearsay). There are many laws that protect customers from such subjective or arbitrary treatment. For instance, in Chicago at least, there is no such thing as “bathrooms for paying customers only”; can’t remember the case name (and too lazy to look it up), but a dozen or so years ago a guy won his case after he was arrested for public urination in front of a Subway that refused to let him just walk in and pee there (court ruled in favor of “natural biological functions” if I remember correctly). I found [this interesting link](http://www.mail-archive.com/basfa@basfa.org/msg00734.html) to a relevant case [to tipping] in New York ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-legally-refuse-to-serve-someone-who-consistently-refused-to-tip/465613/25 "2008-09-30T01:57:06Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > While you could refuse service on any grounds you like, since the person has paid the requested fee for the services you deliver I’m not sure what would be gained from refusing to serve them in the future. This raises a good question, perhaps more suited for the Legal Dopers. It’s a contract law question involving offer, acceptance, and consideration. If the restaurant makes, via its menu, an offer (“Burger Platter, $10”), and the customer accepts the offer (“I’ll have the Burger Platter, please”), and puts valid consideration on the table for the agreed-upon price ($10), it seems to me that there is a valid contract. Given this setup, can the restaurant breach the contract by refusing to serve the customer because the customer won’t leave a discretionary, unstated amount in excess of the agreed-upon consideration? In other words, does refusing to serve the non-tipper who won’t pay more than the advertised and agreed-upon consideration give the non-tipper a cause of action in contract law? ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-legally-refuse-to-serve-someone-who-consistently-refused-to-tip/465613/26 "2008-09-30T02:10:13Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > If the restaurant makes, via its menu, an offer (“Burger Platter, $10”), and the customer accepts the offer (“I’ll have the Burger Platter, please”), and puts valid consideration on the table for the agreed-upon price ($10), it seems to me that there is a valid contract. Given this setup, can the restaurant breach the contract by refusing to serve the customer because the customer won’t leave a discretionary, unstated amount in excess of the agreed-upon consideration? In other words, does refusing to serve the non-tipper who won’t pay more than the advertised and agreed-upon consideration give the non-tipper a cause of action in contract law? Well, the contract is only good for that transaction. Which the customer has accepted and completed. Even if he doesn’t leave a tip, well, then, the contract is complete. By refusing him service the next time he visits, _you’re not offering that contract for the next transaction._ He’s excluded. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-legally-refuse-to-serve-someone-who-consistently-refused-to-tip/465613/27 "2008-09-30T04:49:26Z")
This is where I offer up my secret shame: My family and I have often dined at a buffet known as [Goofy’s Kitchen.](http://disneyland.disney.go.com/disneyland/en_US/hotels/dining/detail?name=GoofysKitchenDiningPage) They quote you a specific price per diner (I believe it was thirty nine dollars or so the last time we were there), and they insist upon payment before seating. And they add a 15% Gratuity to the bill (it’s listed right there on the receipt as a gratuity), _and_ they charge California sales tax on the whole megillah. Thing is, contrary to what **Balthisar** mentions, you can’t even successfully press for them to honor the proffered contract for a first transaction, without giving them a chance to withdraw it in your case. It’s kind of soured me on the notion of eating there. ---
**Author:** ![Chef\_Troy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Chef\_Troy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chef_Troy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-legally-refuse-to-serve-someone-who-consistently-refused-to-tip/465613/28 "2008-09-30T12:48:36Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I sort of wish tipping wasn’t predominant in the States, but it is, and I see little opportunity to change it. > > As it stands now at a lot of restaurants servers make something like $3.00/hour (I can’t remember the exact number anymore, I believe it’s typically something like 50% of minimum wage) in base pay and can make upwards of $20-25 an hour at peak. It’s not entirely uncommon for a server at a busy restaurant that has moderately priced meals to make $100 a night. How high would most business be willing to pay these individuals? Well, dish washing is a much, much, much worse job than serving. Anyone who has ever worked cleaning dishes at a busy restaurant (and I have) can tell you that it’s easily harder than being a server, and most places I’m familiar with it pays $10-12/hour (which for an 8 hour shift would be ~$90.) > > Over the long run, most servers won’t go for that because on good nights they make a good bit more than the dishwashers. But at the same time most restaurants design their business around paying servers a low rate of pay and don’t want to have to fundamentally change that. > > Yes, they **could** , but it’s basically “cutting against the grain” in the restaurant industry. And many experienced servers just aren’t going to want to work somewhere where they don’t feel they can directly contribute to their nightly take-home. Another big thing is a lot of these people like the fact that tips are often taken home the night you’ve earned them. Whereas the hourly people only get paid once a week at the most. I’ve known a lot of people who worked as waitstaff who _needed_ the nightly income to support their extra-curriculars (I am talking from a 30-year old frame of reference but from what I’ve seen of today’s restaurant workers I don’t think I’m too off base on this.) For those of you who aren’t familiar with the entertaining blog [Waiter Rant](http://waiterrant.net), it’s written by a (formerly) anonymous waiter at a NY bistro who chronicles the restaurant experience from the waiter’s point of view (at least he used to do so… now that he has a book out, I think his days of waiting tables are pretty much over). Anyway, [click here](http://waiterrant.net/?p=502) to read an entry of his on why customers shouldn’t be any more eager to abolish tipping than the waiters are. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-legally-refuse-to-serve-someone-who-consistently-refused-to-tip/465613/29 "2008-09-30T14:26:32Z")
> [@cavedonkey](#): > > A tip (or gratuity) is not required by any law I’m familiar with (key words here; things can be different depending on local laws). So, refusal of service because someone just didn’t "do something that you don’t like or agree with” wouldn’t hold up in court. Cite please. What does the legality of not tipping have to do with the situation as described in the OP? ---
**Author:** ![in\_hiding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c5a1d2/32.png) [@in\_hiding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/in_hiding)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-legally-refuse-to-serve-someone-who-consistently-refused-to-tip/465613/30 "2008-09-30T14:45:34Z")
> [@Chef\_Troy](#): > > Anyway, [click here](http://waiterrant.net/?p=502) to read an entry of his on why customers shouldn’t be any more eager to abolish tipping than the waiters are. A little off-Topic, but… the linked article really annoys me. He mentions messing with customer’s food twice, and some of the comments are not really better. Am I supposed to like the system more now? “You’d better tip, or eat my spit?” ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-legally-refuse-to-serve-someone-who-consistently-refused-to-tip/465613/31 "2008-09-30T15:00:44Z")
> [@cavedonkey](#): > > A tip (or gratuity) is not required by any law I’m familiar with (key words here; things can be different depending on local laws). So, refusal of service because someone just didn’t "do something that you don’t like or agree with” wouldn’t hold up in court. Why wouldn’t this hold up in court? You walk into a place of business, and they say they don’t want to do business with you. Businesses are fully within their rights to choose to do business with whomever they wish, and not do business with others, unless they are making that choice based on your inclusion in a [Protected Class](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class) Bad Tipper isn’t a protected class. Annoying Git isn’t a protected class. Ugly isn’t a protected class. Cowboys Fan isn’t a protected class. Business can refuse to do business with you for these reasons, it might very well be a bad idea, but it’s legal. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-legally-refuse-to-serve-someone-who-consistently-refused-to-tip/465613/32 "2008-09-30T15:31:49Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > The bar I play at had such a customer a couple of years ago. He literally never tipped a dime: if got a dime back as change, he’d pocket it. His finances were obviously tight – he was on disability, and just basically drank all day. But he was defiant about it when customers hinted that it would be nice to leave the barmaid a tip, claiming that he was within his legal rights. He also tried to turn it into a racial issue, which was silly because there were other black customers who did tip. IIRC, the owner ended up asking him not to come back, which an establishment can do, as long as it’s not based on the discriminations noted in the OP. The weird thing about that is if his finances were so tight that he couldn’t tip a dime, then he had no business drinking in a bar. A beer at a bar costs $3, a whole 6-pack costs $6. Or maybe he was just going there for the company. ---
**Author:** ![maladroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@maladroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maladroit)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-legally-refuse-to-serve-someone-who-consistently-refused-to-tip/465613/33 "2008-09-30T17:06:55Z")
“The bar I play at” maybe he was there for the live music ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-legally-refuse-to-serve-someone-who-consistently-refused-to-tip/465613/34 "2008-09-30T21:49:32Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > This is where I offer up my secret shame: My family and I have often dined at a buffet known as [Goofy’s Kitchen.](http://disneyland.disney.go.com/disneyland/en_US/hotels/dining/detail?name=GoofysKitchenDiningPage) They quote you a specific price per diner (I believe it was thirty nine dollars or so the last time we were there), and they insist upon payment before seating. And they add a 15% Gratuity to the bill (it’s listed right there on the receipt as a gratuity), _and_ they charge California sales tax on the whole megillah. > > Thing is, contrary to what **Balthisar** mentions, you can’t even successfully press for them to honor the proffered contract for a first transaction, without giving them a chance to withdraw it in your case. > > It’s kind of soured me on the notion of eating there. Charging tax on the tip? Is that legal? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-legally-refuse-to-serve-someone-who-consistently-refused-to-tip/465613.md?page=1)