# Could you live in a society in which dueling was legal? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 5, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618 "2011-08-05T17:55:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/21 "2011-08-05T19:50:34Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Yeah, I would amend the hypothetical to state that the challenger can either withdraw before the challenge is accepted, or if it has been accepted\*\*, the challenger can withdraw if the person they challenged consents to the withdrawal.\*\* (bolding mine) I was going to write that that was functionally the case anyway – that if the challengee agrees to the challenger withdrawal, they’ll also agree to simply decline. But as I think on it, a challengee might prefer to have it on record that the other party wussed out. ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/22 "2011-08-05T20:03:49Z")
I’m all for it, but I have a lot of questions - What if there is a trial, its all over, and the scumbag got off on a technicality - am I allowed to challenge him after the trial is over? What gain do I get if he just blows me off? Can I challenge the same person over and over and over again for the same thing if they keep rejecting my offer to the field of honor? Is there a statute of limitations on how often I can pester people (either with the same challenge or different ones)? Am I ALLOWED to challenge someone for standing my daughter up for prom (to use the earlier example) and everyone will just think I’m a tool? Or is there a judge or personage who has to approve the potential challenge for seriousness? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/23 "2011-08-05T20:14:44Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > I’m all for it, but I have a lot of questions - > > What if there is a trial, its all over, and the scumbag got off on a technicality - am I allowed to challenge him after the trial is over? What gain do I get if he just blows me off? Yes, you’d be allowed to issue such a challenge. Obviously you’re no better off if he declines, but you’re no worse off either. And _he_ may be worse off, for there is surely social pressure to accept challenges (and fight your own battles) if a challenge is given for socially acceptable reasons. > [@](#): > > Can I challenge the same person over and over and over again for the same thing if they keep rejecting my offer to the field of honor? Is there a statute of limitations on how often I can pester people (either with the same challenge or different ones)? I hadn’t thought of that. I’d expect that the Dueling Commission or whatnot would forbid a certain number of re-challenges. If I were Commissioner I’d limit people to one challenges over one issue, in fact. > [@](#): > > Am I ALLOWED to challenge someone for standing my daughter up for prom (to use the earlier example) and everyone will just think I’m a tool? Or is there a judge or personage who has to approve the potential challenge for seriousness? Hmm. I think Monomoachia is probably casual enough about death that they’ll allow peoplel to fight over whatever the hell the want so long as they don’t make a public nuisance or peril. So yes, you’ll be allowed to challenge someone to the death over the prom thing or whatever, but all your neighbors will think you’re a tool and pressure you to drop it. As I think on it, that’s an argument for allowing the challenger to withdraw the challenge, actually. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/24 "2011-08-05T20:27:20Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Yes, you’d be allowed to issue such a challenge. Obviously you’re no better off if he declines, but you’re no worse off either. And _he_ may be worse off, for there is surely social pressure to accept challenges (and fight your own battles) if a challenge is given for socially acceptable reasons. Define socially acceptable. I’m not sure that there’d be a whole lot of pressure to accept, but maybe that’s the optimist in me. If society reaches the point where you’d seriously lose face by refusing to kill or be killed, then that’s surely a society that I wouldn’t want to live in. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/25 "2011-08-05T20:29:11Z")
Why do you think I’m taking fencing lessons? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/26 "2011-08-05T20:31:06Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > Why do you think I’m taking fencing lessons? Because good fences make good neighbors? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/27 "2011-08-05T20:36:29Z")
The rules as set out make it too easy. Let’s say I’m challenged. Either I hire a champion, or refuse the challenge, and get branded as a coward and shunned. If that happens, I just take part of the fabulous salary I’ve made and take the wife and kids back to the USA, or maybe the real Switzerland. Or let’s say I challenge my enemy and defeat him in a duel to the death. Great, I’ve just killed my worst enemy and the law won’t prosecute me. The only remaining scenario is that I challenge someone to a duel and he goes out and gets a champion who will easily defeat me. Why would I even run the risk of challenging someone in the first place when he can go out and get someone to legally kill me? And even if I were stupid enough to get myself into that situation, I simply surrender as soon as the other guy steps into the ring. Then it’s right back to paragraph 1. Change the rules so both parties have to fight for themselves, or maybe only allow an immediate family member to be their champion (no professionals) and then you have a moral dilemma. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/28 "2011-08-05T20:50:24Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Define socially acceptable. I’m not sure that there’d be a whole lot of pressure to accept, but maybe that’s the optimist in me. If society reaches the point where you’d seriously lose face by refusing to kill or be killed, then that’s surely a society that I wouldn’t want to live in. Well, that’s kind of the point. I’m thinking Monomachia must be just that sort of society. Reformers have tried to rein in the most bloodthirsty elements, but if you decline a challenge issued for a socially acceptable reason, you’re likely to get shunned. If a fit male in the prime of his life hires a champion to fight his battles, he’s going to get mocked. **kunilou** , I think the issues you bring up are valid, except that the changes you suggest would make still not make the dilemma about _morality_. Just practicality. A moral dilemma would come if you were deciding whether to challenge someone else, or whether the US should try to prosecute me if I, a US expat living in Monomachia, slew you, another such expat, in a legally accepted manner. ---
**Author:** ![YourAdHere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/65b543/32.png) [@YourAdHere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YourAdHere)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/29 "2011-08-05T20:52:37Z")
Wrt champions, I would be worried about the following situation: suppose there are two well known public figures, John and Richard. John repeatedly degrades, dishonors, and publicly humiliates Richard. Perhaps Richard is not in a position to retaliate in kind. John continues to bait richard into challenging him, but john himself never challenges Richard to a duel. He also knows that Richard will never challenge him, bc if he did, John would just hire a champion. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/30 "2011-08-05T20:59:29Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Well, that’s kind of the point. I’m thinking Monomachia must be just that sort of society. It sounds like a place where macho posturing would be the norm. No thanks. I’ll take the good ol’ US of A where such things never happen. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/31 "2011-08-05T21:12:56Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > **kunilou** , I think the issues you bring up are valid, except that the changes you suggest would make still not make the dilemma about _morality_. Just practicality. A moral dilemma would come if you were deciding whether to challenge someone else, or whether the US should try to prosecute me if I, a US expat living in Monomachia, slew you, another such expat, in a legally accepted manner. It becomes a moral dilemma if the other person is old and weak, but can’t hire a champion, or if my younger, healthier, stronger (adult) son wants to take my place leaving me to decide between dishonor, my own death or putting my child at risk. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/32 "2011-08-05T21:52:54Z")
> [@](#): > > either party may surrender in such a duel. Disregarding a surrender or a referee’s order to stop is criminal, and if doing so leads to the other party’s death, the killing is prosecuted as a murder. Now there’s a clause that will ensure the lawyers in this hypothetical country are never short of work. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/33 "2011-08-05T22:15:15Z")
On second thought, I’d take a pass on it. Somewhere down the line I’d be forced to emulate [Captain Tightpants](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDhDoWTghmk&playnext=1&list=PL16A2FFF4029DED28), and that would get me thrown into jail right quick according to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/34 "2011-08-05T22:16:28Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > On second thought, I’d take a pass on it. Somewhere down the line I’d be forced to emulate Captain Tightpants, and that would get me thrown into jail right quick according to the OP. Who is Captain Tightpants, and what would emulating him involve? ETA: Do you mean Malcolm Reynolds from _Firefly_? Because if so, his problem was that he didn’t understand the situation; that is, he thought he was being challenged to an ordinary fistfight, not a swordfight to the death. Monomachia’s laws would have worked fine for him. Inara’s suitor challenges him; he says, “I won’t fight with a sword or gun, but if you wanna throw hands, fine.” If the suitor really wants to fight, he has to agree to that, and Benny from LA Law would have been charged to make sure things didn’t get out of hand when the time came. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/35 "2011-08-05T22:27:01Z")
I’m in. It’s not that I think I would like living with the dueling laws but I certainly can’t see it driving me away from big bucks and a better climate. ETA: Also today it’s lovely to dream of a world where I could challenge the idiot program manager who is making my life miserable. LOVELY I tell you. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/36 "2011-08-05T22:43:06Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Who is Captain Tightpants, and what would emulating him involve? > > ETA: Do you mean Malcolm Reynolds from _Firefly_? Because if so, his problem was that he didn’t understand the situation; that is, he thought he was being challenged to an ordinary fistfight, not a swordfight to the death. Monomachia’s laws would have worked fine for him. Inara’s suitor challenges him; he says, “I won’t fight with a sword or gun, but if you wanna throw hands, fine.” If the suitor really wants to fight, he has to agree to that, and Benny from LA Law would have been charged to make sure things didn’t get out of hand when the time came. That’s what I mean. I’d be forced, by my own twisted needs, to stab a man who was down, just so I could use that quote. Then Benny would haul me away. ---
**Author:** ![buckgully](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb9ed0/32.png) [@buckgully](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buckgully)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/37 "2011-08-05T23:10:33Z")
Just reading the title: Hell no. For some reason I’ve never been able to figure out, short guys are always trying to pick fights with me. If I go to a concert, club, or a bar rowdier than “Cheers” I will, at some point in the night, have some guy at least 6" shorter than me try and pick a fight. My wife has put forth the theory that I’m big enough that they think they’ll look tough to their friends/dates, but I look non-aggressive so they can be reasonably sure I’m not going to pummel them. I would assume that it would be even worse in a place where that kind of behavior isn’t going to just get a giant eyeroll from everyone but the dork doing the “you lookin’ at me?” BS. Reading the spoiler, sure. I really don’t care if other people think I’m a coward or anything, especially for that kind of money. I would just turn down all the challenges that came my way. Hell, I’d wear a chicken suit and make a joke of it, but that would probably result in more challenges. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/38 "2011-08-05T23:28:12Z")
I want to say I’d jump at it, but the concept of hired champions perverts the whole system, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/39 "2011-08-06T00:19:35Z")
Read Heinlein’s **Beyond This Horizon** for his take on this question. Not as the main plot, but as a sub-plot. ---
**Author:** ![YaraMateo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/58f4c7/32.png) [@YaraMateo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YaraMateo)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618/40 "2011-08-06T01:08:27Z")
Not only do I want to live there, I would be one of the professional duelers. Still not sure if I’d take money for it or work pro bono. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-live-in-a-society-in-which-dueling-was-legal/591618.md?page=3)