# Could you make a food product entirely out of "natural flavors"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 6, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961 "2014-08-06T17:30:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/21 "2014-08-07T06:38:47Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Perhaps it is different in other parts of the world, but what I have tried to explain, several times in this thread (does anyone read the whole thread? we had a poll about this!) is I mean “natural flavorings” as the catchall category that appears on ingredients lists in the nutrition label mandated by the Food and Drug Administration in the United States, which can contain a lot of questionable additives. **Chingon** and **Construct** posted links described what I’m talking about. > > Whether it is natural or otherwise I could care less. I care if it falls into the “natural or artificial flavorings” category on food labels. As such your post makes no sense in the context of this thread. What **Chingon** and **Construct** said was fully consistent with what I said, and **Chingon** , at least, seems to me to be essentially making part of the same point as me: “natural flavors, by definition, have to be additives and not the main substance itself”. You apparently did not understand it, so I thought it might be helpful to spell it out more completely and in more detail. Apparently you still do not understand and you remain confused, only now you are getting truculent about it. Perhaps you should try reading my post again, carefully, and you might finally get the point. If as you now appear to be saying, you didn’t mean “natural” when you said “natural” and you did not mean “flavors” or “flavorings” when you said “flavors”, perhaps you should take a deep breath, find a dictionary or something similar, and figure out what you _did_ mean, and what the proper words for it are. As it stands, the only possible answers to your question are either “No, foods cannot be made entirely of flavors, natural or otherwise,” or (on a more unconventional, but not absurd interpretation of “flavor”) “Yes, foods can be made entirely of natural flavors, and many (including your example of a cake) are (indeed, maybe they all are, on a sufficiently liberal interpretation of ‘natural’)”. Take your pick. It all depends on what the hell you think “natural flavor”, or maybe just “flavor”, means, something you still seem very confused about, though you are not prepared to admit it. You need to understand that being a “flavor” or a “flavoring” is not a property a substance has intrinsically, it is a property it only has in virtue of being used to give flavor to something. Vanilla pods are commonly used for flavoring, but if I am using one to prop the door open, it is not being a flavor or flavoring right now. If you are asking whether substances such as those listed at the link given by **Construct** (i.e., substances that the FDA permits to used as, and listed as, “natural flavors”) can be eaten (either singly, or mixed with one another, but not mixed with anything not on the list) in more than the tiny quantities in which they are normally used for flavoring other foods (i.e., if you used things normally only used as flavorings as though they were foods in their own right), the answer is probably “Yes, you could eat it, but it would almost certainly taste horrible, provide little if any nutritive value, and would quite likely make you ill.” Whether you count that as “being a food” is, again, up to you and your interpretation of those words. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/22 "2014-08-07T06:51:27Z")
FWIW, OP, I understood perfectly what you are asking, and there are several obtuse dipshits in this thread. I don’t have any insights, but **Ornery Bob** had a great answer. What does a mouthful of isoamyl acetate taste/feel like, though? What’s the LD of isoamyl acetate, would a mouthful kill us? ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/23 "2014-08-07T12:18:54Z")
> [@Ornery\_Bob](#): > > Let’s start with the definition of what a natural flavoring really is… > > _The term natural flavor or natural flavoring means the essential oil, oleoresin, essence or extractive, protein hydrolysate, distillate, or any product of roasting, heating or enzymolysis, which contains the flavoring constituents derived from a spice, fruit or fruit juice, vegetable or vegetable juice, edible yeast, herb, bark, bud, root, leaf or similar plant material, meat, seafood, poultry, eggs, dairy products, or fermentation products thereof, whose significant function in food is flavoring rather than nutritional. Natural flavors, include the natural essence or extractives obtained from plants listed in subpart A of part 582 of this chapter, and the substances listed in 172.510 of this chapter._ > > So can we make a snack cake from this stuff? We could certainly make a sculpture that looked like a snack cake. > > For example, the flavor component of bananas is isoamyl acetate, which you could make by using alcohol to extract it from mashed bananas and then distilling off the alcohol and drying what was left and grinding it into a powder. Since isoamyl acetate is not water soluble, you could then wet the powder with water and make it into a paste and then use a mold to form the paste into the shape of a snack cake and let it dry. You could use more of that same paste in a pastry bag to decorate the top so it looks like it has frosting, and then all you need to do is “paint” the sculpture with a flavor compound of the appropriate color and Bob’s your uncle! > > The idea is that any powder that doesn’t dissolve in water can be the “clay” for your sculpture and basically any compound can be the “paint” (as either a suspension or extract) and the rest is up to your imagination. > > Is that what you had in mind? This is exactly what I had in mind. Thanks! Seems like there’s a lot you could do, even if it would taste terrible, since I imagine a lot of those compounds would have the clay-like properties you mention. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/24 "2014-08-07T12:21:18Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > FWIW, OP, I understood perfectly what you are asking, and there are several obtuse dipshits in this thread. Thank You. I was at the point where I wondered if I had taken crazy pills at some point. > [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > I don’t have any insights, but **Ornery Bob** had a great answer. What does a mouthful of isoamyl acetate taste/feel like, though? What’s the LD of isoamyl acetate, would a mouthful kill us? Good questions! I’m sure it would taste terrible, but if you could magically deaden your tastebuds, I do wonder if you could get similar textures through some unconventional uses of these additives. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/25 "2014-08-07T12:31:45Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > Interestingly, according to “Fast Food Nation”, the distinction between artificial and natural flavors is actually minor. > > In both cases, the flavors are constructed from suites of basic chemicals. If the chemicals are synthesized, the flavor is ‘artificial’. If the chemicals are extracted from plants & things found in nature, the flavor is ‘natural’. Well, yes. Isn’t that pretty obvious? What else could the distinction be? ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/26 "2014-08-07T12:38:14Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > What does a mouthful of isoamyl acetate taste/feel like, though? What’s the LD of isoamyl acetate, would a mouthful kill us? I’ve used the stuff in the lab. It’s not a powder, it’s a pungent, slightly “oily” liquid, much like a lot of organic chemicals. Smells like bananas - or, to be more accurate, like banana flavour sweets. The LD[sub]50[/sub] in rats is about 16g per kg, so it’s pretty nontoxic. However it is classed as an irritant to mucous membranes, so swallowing it wouldn’t be too pleasant, I imagine. [http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927549](http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927549) ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/27 "2014-08-07T13:55:56Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > This is exactly what I had in mind. Thanks! > > Seems like there’s a lot you could do, even if it would taste terrible, since I imagine a lot of those compounds would have the clay-like properties you mention. Yes someone can physically do it, but can someone legally sell that as food with a label that only says “natural or artificial flavorings”? To that I am doubtful. At this point, I believe the ingredients can no longer be classified as natural or artificial flavorings because they are no longer additives. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/28 "2014-08-07T14:14:37Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > Well, yes. Isn’t that pretty obvious? What else could the distinction be? Although the chemicals are sourced diferently, apparently the flavors in both natural and artificial flavors are built up “from scratch” in the same way. I think most of us in the general public imagine that natural ( for example) cherry flavor is derived from cherries, and only cherries, but apparently that is not necessarily so. Again, I am referring to things I read in “Fast Food Nation” a few years ago, and I am no expert in food sciences. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/29 "2014-08-07T14:24:43Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > FWIW, OP, I understood perfectly what you are asking, and there are several obtuse dipshits in this thread. You’ve been around long enough to know that personal insults aren’t allowed in GQ. No warning issued, but don’t do this again. ---
**Author:** ![Elemenopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b5e925/32.png) [@Elemenopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elemenopy)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/30 "2014-08-07T16:38:25Z")
[Jello](http://www.labelwatch.com/prod_results.php?pid=142505)has got to be pretty close to what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/31 "2014-08-08T22:19:29Z")
Most pure flavours would be toxic in large doses. They need to be diluted in a matrix of water, protein and carbohydrates. It is the dose that makes the poison to paraphrase Paracelcus. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/32 "2014-08-09T01:42:03Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > Most pure flavours would be toxic in large doses. They need to be diluted in a matrix of water, protein and carbohydrates. It is the dose that makes the poison to paraphrase Paracelcus. Any examples come to mind? I have a feeling nobody is slipping strychnine into my food as a flavoring. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/33 "2014-08-09T05:36:14Z")
Sure just one example will do fine… one of the safest natural flavours would be banana oil. The authorities do improbable research , such as determining the lethal dose in humans, so that they don’t get accused of “just guessing” or “making stuff up”. Banana flavor, Isoamyl acetate, is Lethal at 10,000 ppm … see [CDC - Immediately Dangerous to Life or Health Concentrations (IDLH): Isoamyl acetate - NIOSH Publications and Products](http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/idlh/123922.HTML) So if you are 120 lb or 60kg, then if you drunk say, a 2 lb of pure banana flavour ( Isoamyl acetate )… it could be lethal… Sure rather hard to consume so much of it, but if you did… First example I picked… ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/34 "2014-08-09T06:58:07Z")
There’s two separate questions that you might be asking here. One is a) could you make something edible that you could legally on the box list only natural flavorings as an ingredient and the answer is no because natural flavorings are required to be used “in the minimum quantity required to produce their intended physical or technical effect” which they’re not. The other is b) Could you take ingredients that have been listed on other packaged foods as natural flavorings and make something edible out of that. I looked at the [FDA list](http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=172.510) above and the closest I could come up with, using just those ingredients would be probably an aloe drink flavored with lemon verbena. Most of the rest of the ingredients on that list are leaves and barks and the such that would need to be paired with real ingredients to succeed. But my reading of the [FDA stature](http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=501.22) seems to suggest a much looser definition “the essential oil, oleoresin, essence or extractive, protein hydrolysate, distillate, or any product of roasting, heating or enzymolysis, which contains the flavoring constituents derived from a spice, fruit or fruit juice, vegetable or vegetable juice, edible yeast, herb, bark, bud, root, leaf or similar plant material, meat, seafood, poultry, eggs, dairy products, or fermentation products thereof, whose significant function in food is flavoring rather than nutritional.” seems to suggest that manufacturers actually have a great deal of discretion over how things are labeled. For example, it seems like a gum manufacturer would have the choice of labelling their ingredient “peppermint oil” or “natural flavoring” on the package, with most manufacturers preferring the former as it’s more informative. By the FDA definition, I suppose technically something like whiskey could be labelled a natural flavoring if it were added for the sole purpose of contributing flavor, which would make a glass of whiskey a 100% “natural flavoring” beverage. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/35 "2014-08-09T07:08:56Z")
A bottle of [Braggs Liquid Amino Acids](http://www.amazon.com/Bragg-Liquid-Aminos-Purpose-Seasoning/dp/B0006Z7NNQ) has listed as it’s ingredients “Vegetable Protein from Soybeans and Purified Water” but I bet they could legally list their ingredients as “Natural Flavorings, Water” if they wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/36 "2014-08-09T07:30:50Z")
> [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > It might mean that Marmite qualifies as food made of natural flavours according the FDA (but whether any normal person thinks it’s edible is up for debate 😉 ) No, it isn’t. Mercotans obviously do not count as “normal persons,” of course, in the context of this, or any other discussion. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/37 "2014-08-09T15:44:34Z")
I have always wondered by artificial flavors are only created to duplicate flavors that exist in nature. Why not create some whole new previously-unknown flavors that people might like? Simply because they would have no evocative names, and would therefore be harder to sell? ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/38 "2014-08-09T16:50:11Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > I have always wondered by artificial flavors are only created to duplicate flavors that exist in nature. Why not create some whole new previously-unknown flavors that people might like? Simply because they would have no evocative names, and would therefore be harder to sell? Isn’t “bubble gum flavor” the typical example used of an artificial flavor? ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/39 "2014-08-09T17:42:10Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Isn’t “bubble gum flavor” the typical example used of an artificial flavor? I think bubble gum was originally given a compex of natural flavors (as were all gums), and a product now that matches the original flavors of bubble gum (and color) would still be a blend of those flavors. Early gums were always flavored with spearmint, cinnamon, licorice, beecyh-nut, or something natural, or later on, an artificial flavor that matched one of the natural ones. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961/40 "2014-08-09T18:00:17Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > I have always wondered by artificial flavors are only created to duplicate flavors that exist in nature. At the risk of being called an obtuse dipshit again, I will point out that the truly massive flavorings industry creates hundreds of completely new flavors every year. Many of them are what is called “fantasia” flavors - blends and new tastes that have no equivalent in natural foods. Cola and Dr Pepper are examples of fantasia flavorings - nothing else tastes like them, and they taste like nothing found naturally on earth. Most flavors created by flavoring labs are not specifically created to taste like berry or cherry or apple or whatever - they are highly engineered compounds that hit the tastebuds in a particular way, can withstand blending and cooking, and end up adding some pleasing note to food. The very same flavor agent can be used to create “grape” soda, “berry” pie filling, “cherry” candy and a wholly proprietary ice cream flavor. It’s all in the proportions, companion flavorings and components, and taster expectations. If you’re told it’s berry, it tastes like berry. If you’re told it’s cherry, guess what. Mmm, completely “natural” grape soda. The idea that there are only 20 different flavors in the industry and that each has thousands of clones is pretty obtuse, as is thinking that they are all copies of naturally-occurring flavors. The industry long, long ago perfected its range of ordinary flavors - any house in the game will sell you a perfect cherry flavoring at any price point, quality level and degree of natural/artificial desired. The goal now is to create flavors that are unique, that can be marketed at the highest prices to food makers who will pay that premium to get something consumers fight over in the aisles. Far more goods are flavored with these specially-blended, looking-for-an-edge compounds than any old-school berry or vanilla or chocolate flavorings. But feel free to reject this obtuse interjection and continue wondering what the food label designations really, really, like, _mean_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-a-food-product-entirely-out-of-natural-flavors/694961.md?page=1)