# Could you make an "adult" Hobbit or LOTR without destroying the greatness of the fiction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 1, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543 "2010-06-01T20:14:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/1 "2010-06-01T20:14:16Z")
Both LOTR and the Hobbit are written in somewhat two dimensional, well scrubbed fashion that does not mention or reflect the way adults really think re internal and external dialogs, which is natural as they have children as one of their primary intended audiences. Could a more (relatively) “realistic” LOTR or Hobbit have been written with more accurate adult dialog and scenes reflecting explicit language, adult attitudes and sexual desires etc. or would the clean nobility and good and evil separation inherent in the original stories have been destroyed by making them more “real” in terms of dialog? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/2 "2010-06-01T20:39:42Z")
I think I have to disagree with your premise. What is “missing” (using the term guardedly) from The Hobbit and LOTR is not an “adult” slant. What’s missing is an everyday, prosaic view of life that modern fiction uses. Tolkien took a more, oh, I don’t know, maybe “royal” is a good term for it, style. Or “high falutin” if you prefer. He was going for a timeless, mythic feel that gave the proceedings an air of aloofness and other-worldliness, which contributed to their greatness. Just MHO, of course. Hmmm, re-reading your post, maybe I am agreeing with your conclusion while disagreeing with your premise. ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/3 "2010-06-01T20:42:41Z")
You could try, but Sam will kill you. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/4 "2010-06-01T20:43:54Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Both LOTR and the Hobbit are written in somewhat two dimensional, well scrubbed fashion that does not mention or reflect the way adults really think re internal and external dialogs, which is natural as they have children as one of their primary intended audiences. > > Could a more (relatively) “realistic” LOTR or Hobbit have been written with more accurate adult dialog and scenes reflecting explicit language, adult attitudes and sexual desires etc. or would the clean nobility and good and evil separation inherent in the original stories have been destroyed by making them more “real” in terms of dialog? I thought LOTR _was_ “adult”, at least in comparison to the more juvenile Hobbit. And I doubt that adding “explicit language” and “sexual desires” would have helped the books at all. IMHO, many pieces of fiction (especially movies) are ill-served by swearing - _Knocked Up_, I’m looking at you. And I can’t think of a single scene in LOTR where I thought “You know, a little boning action here would really help the scene/character.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/5 "2010-06-01T20:54:40Z")
LotR runs counter to the current fashion in serious fiction by being relentlessly non-psychological. It says a great deal about what the characters do, but says very little about what they think or feel. The fact that the internal lives of the characters aren’t explicitly laid out and dissected by the author, doesn’t mean that the work is “childish” or “two dimensional”. It just means that the reader has to expend more effort to read between the lines. Rewriting LotR in a more psychological style would pretty much destroy it, I think. It would turn an epic universal story into something petty and personal and small. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/6 "2010-06-01T21:05:50Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > And I doubt that adding “explicit language” and “sexual desires” would have helped the books at all. IMHO, many pieces of fiction (especially movies) are ill-served by swearing - _Knocked Up_, I’m looking at you. I just have to offer the counterexample of Gaiman’s Stardust, in whichThe beautiful lady star falls to Earth, and her first words are: Ow. FUCK Ow. Not that it is really an argument against your position - just the thread and your comment reminded me of it. BTW, I’m not the only one who read the thread title and thought “Hobbit porn” am I? ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/7 "2010-06-01T21:06:56Z")
I’m with **Tim** and **John** (and, on preview, **Hamster** ) here; there wouldn’t really be any question of “improving” anything – you’d simply be writing a different kind of fiction. There is no requirement that a story include realistic language or sex in order to be readable by or valuable to adults; in fact I’d say that a narrow preference for any single style is the mark of an underdeveloped literary palate. I feel compelled to quote Tolkien’s friend and fellow Inkling here in his defense: > [@C. S. Lewis](#): > > Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. > […] > The modern view [of fairy tales] seems to me to involve a false conception of growth. They accuse us of arrested development because we have not lost a taste we had in childhood. But surely arrested development consists not in refusing to lose old things but in failing to add new things? I now like hock, which I am sure I should not have liked as a child. But I still like lemon-squash. I call this growth or development because I have been enriched: where I formerly had only one pleasure, I now have two. From his essay, “On Three Ways of Writing for Children.” ---
**Author:** ![heathen\_earthling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/13edae/32.png) [@heathen\_earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heathen_earthling)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/8 "2010-06-01T21:07:23Z")
Did Tolkien’s novels ever really appeal to most children? I read _Hobbit_ when I was about 10, and _Fellowship_ when I was about 13, and thought they were too boring. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/9 "2010-06-01T21:22:54Z")
I think SNL addressed this is a comic manner, along with others. With ‘adult’ in quotes you could be implying pornography, in that case, I think it was Larry Flynt who said something like, ‘Pornography is not the frame, it is the picture’. I think I’ve seen a soft-core movie that illustrates that principle, and I’m sure its been done in a hard-core version, since every successful movie generates at least one. If you’re just talking about an R rated version of the original (requiring some license), why not if done well? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/10 "2010-06-01T21:30:29Z")
> [@ed malin](#): > > I think SNL addressed this is a comic manner, along with others. With ‘adult’ in quotes you could be implying pornography, in that case, I think it was Larry Flynt who said something like, ‘Pornography is not the frame, it is the picture’. I think I’ve seen a soft-core movie that illustrates that principle, and I’m sure its been done in a hard-core version, since every successful movie generates at least one. If you’re just talking about an R rated version of the original (requiring some license), why not if done well? When i say “adult” themes I’m not talking about just adding salty language and sex. I’m saying you would have a more relective John Updike or Tom Wolfe style take on the interior lives of the characters. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/11 "2010-06-01T21:33:48Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > LotR runs counter to the current fashion in serious fiction by being relentlessly non-psychological. It says a great deal about what the characters do, but says very little about what they think or feel. The fact that the internal lives of the characters aren’t explicitly laid out and dissected by the author, doesn’t mean that the work is “childish” or “two dimensional”. It just means that the reader has to expend more effort to read between the lines. And a darn fine thing it is, too. > [@](#): > > Rewriting LotR in a more psychological style would pretty much destroy it, I think. It would turn an epic universal story into something petty and personal and small. _Personal isn’t the same thing as important._~~Terry Pratchett, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/12 "2010-06-01T22:00:00Z")
> [@astro](#): > > When i say “adult” themes I’m not talking about just adding salty language and sex. I’m saying you would have a more relective John Updike or Tom Wolfe style take on the interior lives of the characters. Is that more adult or more adolescent? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/13 "2010-06-01T22:10:33Z")
An “adult” Hobbit? Like **Halflings Gone Wild**? Giant Spider porn? Hobbit Holes Vol. 7? Man on Smaug? ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/14 "2010-06-01T22:33:20Z")
[It’s been done.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bored_of_the_Rings) ---
**Author:** ![NJ\_Kef](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/258eb7/32.png) [@NJ\_Kef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NJ_Kef)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/15 "2010-06-01T23:13:10Z")
_The Lord of the Rings_ belongs to a literary genre known as “romance.” What you are asking, if I understand correctly, is how would the plot or story of LotR be received if it was presented as a “novel,” which is another genre. (Some literary critics might call LotR a “romantic novel” and what you have in mind a “realistic” or “psychological” or “modern novel.”) In any case, if an author aspires to match form with content, then a great deal would be lost. In an unsent letter to a reader [Letters: 171], Tolkien makes the point that his use of archaic speech cannot be replaced with modern speech. He cites this passage from _the Two Towers_ as an example: _‘Nay, Gandalf!’ said the King. ‘You do not know your own skill in healing. It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to fall in front of the battle, if it must be. Thus shall I sleep better.’_ According to Tolkien: _“[…] people who think like that just do not talk a modern idiom. You can have ‘I shall lie easier in my grave’, or ‘I should sleep sounder in my grave like that rather than if I stayed at home’ – if you like. But there would be an insincerity of thought, a disunion of word and meaning. For a King who spoke in a modern style would not really think in such terms at all […].”_ I think the same insincerity and disunion would occur if the story were presented with “more accurate dialog and scenes reflecting explicit language, adult attitudes and sexual desires etc.” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/16 "2010-06-01T23:18:17Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Is that more adult or more adolescent? Yeah, I would have answered differently if that were revealed initially. Do you have a recommendation for who should do the screenplay? ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/17 "2010-06-02T00:14:55Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Could a more (relatively) “realistic” LOTR or Hobbit have been written with more accurate adult dialog and scenes reflecting explicit language, adult attitudes and sexual desires etc. or would the clean nobility and good and evil separation inherent in the original stories have been destroyed by making them more “real” in terms of dialog? Let me start by saying that I believe that LOTR is a “young adult” novel if anything is–it is most appropriate and easily read by an advanced teenager. You could write a book “like” LOTR but aimed at adults. You could not rewrite LOTR and get anything except parody or crap, but there are books that fit that description more or less. I believe that Stephen Donaldson’s intention with the first Thomas Covenant series was almost exactly that. The works of James Branch Cabell are written for adults, and are at least in a similar genre to LOTR. \*The Well of the Unicorn \*is a fantasy quest with (somewhat) more realpolitik. The works of Guy Gavriel Kay seem to fit pretty well. So, sure, you could write a book “like” LOTR only for adults. Whether it would be any good or not–that depends on you. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/18 "2010-06-02T21:12:33Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > LotR runs counter to the current fashion in serious fiction by being relentlessly non-psychological. It says a great deal about what the characters do, but says very little about what they think or feel. The fact that the internal lives of the characters aren’t explicitly laid out and dissected by the author, doesn’t mean that the work is “childish” or “two dimensional”. It just means that the reader has to expend more effort to read between the lines. > > Rewriting LotR in a more psychological style would pretty much destroy it, I think. It would turn an epic universal story into something petty and personal and small. Hamster King - you have nailed it. I agree the psychological is not ignored, but you do have to read between the lines, as you say. (see Sale’s description of Frodo as hero in Modern Heroism: Essays on D.H. Lawrence, William Empson, and J.R.R. Tolkien. Roger Sale. University of California Press, Berkeley and Los Angeles, 1973. …) also, misquoting an author I like, Donald Miller - Tolkien’s characters were trees in a story about a forest. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/19 "2010-06-02T23:11:56Z")
All that psychological stuff is _there_, it’s just not what the story is about. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543/20 "2010-06-02T23:22:51Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > [It’s been done.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bored_of_the_Rings) [Even better.]([http://www.imdb](http://www.imdb). com/title/ tt0323108/) Potentially NSFW if W is REALLY strict! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-make-an-adult-hobbit-or-lotr-without-destroying-the-greatness-of-the-fiction/541543.md?page=2)