# Could you please stop making gay men look like screechy, hissy drama queens? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 3, 2003, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329 "2003-06-03T09:34:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/41 "2003-06-03T19:44:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*What, exactly, was the point here? To prove him right one example at a time? Jesus Christ. Never mind that every single self-identified lesbian in the other thread agreed that lame “lesbian in a man’s body” joke was hugely offensive to them. Let’s pit **Esprix** over it anyway. > > Can I switch sides? The company over here sucks. I’m not gay, but I am willing to learn. \*\* Of _course_! Let me take you through our training program. 😉 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/42 "2003-06-03T19:45:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\*Gosh, I kind of like the word “faggot.” I especially like the variation in pronunciation one can get. My two favorites are the very clipped and the streched out “faaaa-git.” > > Now “fag” I don’t like. Probably because the nasal a most midwesterners give it make the word sound somehow…incomplete to my ear. \*\* So it’s okay if it’s drawn out more? [Repo Man] “John Wayne was a fay-ug.” [/Repo Man] :rolleyes: 😉 Those reading this thread who still don’t get the “faggot” pun **Malacandra** refers to should really read the thread **jjimm** links to above. All will be made clear. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/43 "2003-06-03T19:58:43Z")
Also, aren’t fags cigarettes? And “fagged” can mean “tired?” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/44 "2003-06-03T20:08:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Also, aren’t fags cigarettes? And “fagged” can mean “tired?” \*\* You are correct. But imagine the reaction of the American businessman phoning a UK client, only to be told by the client’s secretary that he’s not available as “he’s outside sucking a fag”. Rumored to be a true story. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/45 "2003-06-03T20:28:55Z")
In UK colloquialism, **Guin** , “fags” are indeed cigarettes, but “faggots” are meatballs made with, in Pratchett’s useful phrase, “suspicious-looking organs.” There was, I recall, a fairly large portion of the population in the 1950s and early 1960s who felt that black people were making too big an issue out of the remaining disadvantages that they felt were oppressing them, and that they ought to just shut up and be thankful they lived in a free country. I presume that the overwhelming majority of this board disagrees strongly with that attitude. The outspoken gay people on this board, and those of us who stand by them, see the problems they encounter in almost precisely the same perspective as those encountered by blacks back then (and to a small extent, still today). And whatever you may think of **Esprix** or **gobear** objecting to hurtful language, there’s a point behind it that really needs to be made. The old solution always works – if you don’t want to read it, don’t open the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/46 "2003-06-03T20:49:28Z")
To a certain extent, **Polycarp** , I agree with you. And yet just because a person is a member of an oppressed group (for lack of a better term), that doesn’t give them free reign to engage in the same type of behavior that they decry. Prejudice is prejudice, regardless of who espouses it. There isn’t a “right” way to show it. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/47 "2003-06-03T21:06:01Z")
Yeah, Polycarp, that is why I tend to be of two minds about these things. The white, straight, middle-class male in me thinks everything is rosy for everybody because it’s rosy for me. On the other hand, the fat guy who is expected by society to take the jokes with jolly good humor can understand Esprix’s reaction to similar jokes at his or his friends’ expense. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/48 "2003-06-03T21:24:40Z")
I’m surprised no one has mentioned niggardly yet. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/49 "2003-06-03T21:44:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jr8 \* > \*\*So it’s okay if it’s drawn out more? > > [Repo Man] > > “John Wayne was a fay-ug.” > > [/Repo Man]\*\* Anything from Repo Man is, by definition, the apotheosis of cool. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/50 "2003-06-03T23:41:04Z")
Gotta disagree with you, **jar** : > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by CadburyAngel_ > I’m a girl who likes to sleep with girls (whee! I’m an expert!) and I didn’t sympathize with the OP at first. But reading the posts from other members who were offended… okay, I get it. Ask me again in five years, and I’m sure I’ll have heard it 400 times instead of 4, and will probably be sick of it, too. > > Yeah, “lesbian in a man’s body” is obnoxious. But is it so offensive that we need to, for example, offer to castrate those who say such a thing (in sarcastic jest, no less) without anesthesia? It seems like the first response to that comment was the best. “Gee, how original.” And then let it drop. This seems like a partial overreaction to me. > > On the other hand, Esprix is allowed to react however he wants to whatever he wants, and I’m not a huge fan of people who seem to think he should sit down and shut up. The boards would be a duller place without him, and I mean that in a complimentary manner. She called the castration comment a _partial_ over-reaction, but ultimatly agreed with both the sentiment of the OP and his right to rant about it. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Sauron_ > To a certain extent, Polycarp, I agree with you. And yet just because a person is a member of an oppressed group (for lack of a better term), that doesn’t give them free reign to engage in the same type of behavior that they decry. Can you show where **Esprix** did that? There’s a whole world of difference between stereotyping someone and being angry at someone for playing into a stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/51 "2003-06-03T23:42:32Z")
Good that you apologised for the usage of the word ‘faggot’, **Malacandra** , but don’t try to pretend that because you’re British, you didn’t know how offensive it would be. Anyone who grew up watching American movies and TV shows, like most of us in the UK did, knows eactly how bad ‘faggot’ is. Btw, when I read ‘Could You Please Stop Making Straight Men Look Like Ignorant Fucks’ I parsed it as ‘these people are making straight men look as if they’re all ignorant fucks, which they are not; please stop.’ It doesn’t say ‘all straight men are ignorant fucks.’ How come everyone else seems to be reading it the second way? Finally - I used to have a good blow of a fag almost every weekend, and I’m a lesbian! 😃 (and in _that_ context, it’s not offensive). ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/52 "2003-06-03T23:54:21Z")
**SciFiSam** , in minor defense of **malacandra** - I’m a Brit, and I knew the word was vaguely offensive in the US, but I had no idea _how_ offensive it was until I read **gobear’s** post (similar to the whole “cunt” debacle). Prior to that, I thought the triple meaning - meatball + tindersticks - was a mildly amusing double-entendre. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/53 "2003-06-04T01:58:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*I’ll take this as a compliment. I’ve had few enough recently and feel a little down. > > As for the OP: > > Yes I suppose technically, semantically, straight men in general are implicated by Esprix’s comment. > > Big frickin’ deal. No offense was clearly intended. None need be taken. No autopsy, no foul. > > Nothing to see, here. \*\* It was a compliment based on my perception that you don’t indulge in inflammatory behaviour just to create a scene and entertainment as I feel Gary’s post was attempting to incite. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/54 "2003-06-04T08:26:07Z")
**SciFiSam** , maybe I just don’t read enough American books, or watch enough American TV or movies, that major on homophobic violence. If it’s OK with you, I’ll keep it that way. I did think, as I wandered off to lunch, if I’d have used the word “nigger” even in a really good pun, and whether “faggot” was on a par with “nigger” and so on. Let’s just leave it I’ve learned my lesson, m’kay? A lesbian who blows fags? Did you see “Tipping The Velvet” when it was on? 😃 I really hate the word “homophobic”, but now’s not the time for the argument. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/55 "2003-06-04T09:47:15Z")
Just to weigh in, I’ve even heard gay colleagues and associates in the UK and Australia several times describe one another in a joking sense as “faggot”, even once or twice a straight friend has called them it in a mock fight. This is obviously between very good, trusted friends. In the same way, female and male friends and I frequently call one another “slut” in a very joking way, and even “slag.” Eg: “You’re such a slut!” or “You total slut!!” But it’s always humorous, and always in good faith. While I can appreciate how much more offensive it obviously would be outside this very limited and exceptional situation, I do still get the impression that the word has a much greater offensiveness in the US than it does in some other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/56 "2003-06-04T10:55:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Btw, when I read ‘Could You Please Stop Making Straight Men Look Like Ignorant Fucks’ I parsed it as ‘these people are making straight men look as if they’re all ignorant fucks, which they are not; please stop.’ First of all, I was not offended by the other thread. In fact I thought it was a very interesting subject. But even when interpreted that way, which is also how I read it, it is still not nice. Why would seeing one straight man act stupidly make you believe all straight men are stupid? Basically it means this: “Please Stop Making Straight Men Look Like Ignorant Fucks, Because All Straight Men Will Be Stereotyped Based On Your Stupidity.” Why else would one straight man make all straight men look ignorant, if not because they will be stereotyped? It is like a white man making a thread called “Jayson Blair, stop making blacks look like lying opportunist %#(#\*!.” Even though there is some truth to the idea that some people will wrongly stereotype black people based on Blair, and some people will wrongly stereotype straight males based on the stupid ones, it should be made clear that such stereotyping is wrong, and should not be accepted. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/57 "2003-06-04T11:06:42Z")
Oops! I hadn’t read the links Esprix had in the other thread. While that thread seemed like a reasonable response to straight males seriously propositioning lesbians to allow them to join in or watch, the actual links revealed that those being pitted did nothing of the kind. Not even anything even approaching the kind. Esprix’s response was way overboard. Perhaps it would have been better to have a more general thread on the subject, rather than attacking specific people who didn’t deserve it. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/58 "2003-06-04T13:17:10Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Sauron_ > > To a certain extent, Polycarp, I agree with you. And yet just because a person is a member of an oppressed group (for lack of a better term), that doesn’t give them free reign to engage in the same type of behavior that they decry. > > Can you show where Esprix did that? There’s a whole world of difference between stereotyping someone and being angry at someone for playing into a stereotype. Well, let me ask you this: Was it necessary to tar all straight men with the “ignorant fuck” label? Do we know for a fact that all (or even a majority) of straight men engage in the behavior described in the OP of the other thread? Of course not. That is casting a negative light on a entire group of people based on the actions of one, or a few. That’s stereotyping. Later in the thread, **Esprix** graciously made the concession that he knows not _all_ straight men are that ignorant. (Emphasis mine.) However, the inferred implication of that statement is that in **Esprix** ’s opinion, a whole passel of straight men are ignorant. Again, that’s a stereotype. (Having said that, I freely admit I might be reading more into that particular comment than is there. If so, I apologize to **Esprix**.) And though you asked for examples of **Esprix** ’s posts that indicated prejudice, I would submit that at least one other poster in that thread has a more serious problem. I don’t remember the poster’s name, but I do remember that **Hamlet** used the poster’s own words against him/her quite effectively. I believe that if you’re going to lambast someone for their behavior, you should lambast that person solely. There’s no need to (even obliquely) drag a group to which the person belongs into the mix. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/59 "2003-06-04T16:40:29Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Nightime** _ > > Even though there is some truth to the idea that some people will wrongly stereotype black people based on Blair, and some people will wrongly stereotype straight males based on the stupid ones, it should be made clear that such stereotyping is wrong, and should not be accepted. I agree. Wholeheartedly. That was part of the point I was trying to get across in the thread title. > [@](#): > > While that thread seemed like a reasonable response to straight males seriously propositioning lesbians to allow them to join in or watch, the actual links revealed that those being pitted did nothing of the kind. Not even anything even approaching the kind. Esprix’s response was way overboard. Perhaps it would have been better to have a more general thread on the subject, rather than attacking specific people who didn’t deserve it. And nowhere in that thread _did_ I attack any specific people. I was attacking the comments in general. I went to great lengths not to, although I did make one clarification about whose comments they were in one of those threads. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329/60 "2003-06-04T16:48:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sauron \* > > Well, let me ask you this: Was it necessary to tar all straight men with the “ignorant fuck” label? I did no such thing. > [@](#): > > Later in the thread, **Esprix** graciously made the concession that he knows not _all_ straight men are that ignorant. (Emphasis mine.) However, the inferred implication of that statement is that in **Esprix** ’s opinion, a whole passel of straight men are ignorant. You are, indeed, reading way more into that comment than I meant. I acknowledge that _only a tiny fraction_ of the entirety of straight men are ignorant fucks who say demeaning, ignorant and offensive things to lesbians. **If any straight man, anywhere, ever got the impression that I meant in any way to infer that _all_, or even a majority, of straight men are ignorant fucks, I apologize to them.** > [@](#): > > I believe that if you’re going to lambast someone for their behavior, you should lambast that person solely. There’s no need to (even obliquely) drag a group to which the person belongs into the mix. As I stated elsewhere, I didn’t even want to do that - all I wanted was to point out that comments like “I’m a lesbian trapped in a straight man’s body” are _highly offensive to a lot of people_. How that turned into a flame-fest against me, well, you’d have to ask those who started it. I reiterate that I get the impression that if _anyone else_ had posted that thread, it wouldn’t have gone where it did, so I place the blame solely at those who hijacked it with their own petty grievances. Esprix [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-gay-men-look-like-screechy-hissy-drama-queens/179329.md?page=4)