# Could you please stop making straight men look like ignorant fucks? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 2, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207 "2003-06-02T20:10:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/141 "2003-06-04T18:17:26Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Esprix_ > > When ignorant straight men make ignorant remarks, it is human nature to extend the disgust you feel towards them to their entire social group; in this case, straight men. > > \ > > sometimes it’s hard to make that differentiation when consistently faced with only the stupid ones. Wow. Just Wow. I’m now wondering if perhaps Thomas and I ought to rethink coming to San Diego, seeing as how you extend your disgust at the post of _one_ straight man to _all_ straight men, which happens to include my amazingly wonderful, thoughtful, kind and generous husband. And do you really mean to tell me that you have participated here at SD for nearly 3 1/2 years and still feel that you are _consistently_ faced with _only_ stupid straight men? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/142 "2003-06-04T18:31:57Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Shayna** _ > > I’m now wondering if perhaps Thomas and I ought to rethink coming to San Diego, seeing as how you extend your disgust at the post of _one_ straight man to _all_ straight men, which happens to include my amazingly wonderful, thoughtful, kind and generous husband. I did not say that I “extend [my] disgust at the post of _one_ straight man to _all_ straight men.” I said I have my biases - _just like everybody else_ - but I did not say that. > [@](#): > > And do you really mean to tell me that you have participated here at SD for nearly 3 1/2 years and still feel that you are _consistently_ faced with _only_ stupid straight men? And I don’t believe I said that, either. I was, however, relating the real-life experiences of my lesbian friends, who have, in fact, been consistently faced with ignorance. I did not say it was my own personal experience. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/143 "2003-06-04T18:35:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shayna \* > And do you really mean to tell me that you have participated here at SD for nearly 3 1/2 years and still feel that you are _consistently_ faced with _only_ stupid straight men? If y’all could put down your torches and pitchforks for a moment, I think you’ll see that **Esprix** has acknowledged his error in smearing all straight men with one guy’s comment. > [@](#): > > If any straight man, anywhere, ever got the impression that I meant in any way to infer that all, or even a majority, of straight men are ignorant fucks, I apologize to them. He has admitted he was guilty of stereotyping, and I think we can all draw a lesson in how easy it is to slip into bigotry against an entire group because of the perceived failings of a subset, or even one member, of that group. Now can all y’all ease up offa my homeboy? Hugs and beers all round! ---
**Author:** ![Trion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Trion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trion)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/144 "2003-06-04T18:40:59Z")
> [@](#): > > When ignorant straight men make ignorant remarks, it is human nature to extend the disgust you feel towards them to their entire social group; in this case, straight men. I know plenty of lesbians who actively avoid the company of all straight men because of jackasses who make these remarks, as it has only ever been straight men who have made the remarks to them. I do not blame them for being burned. Intellectually, we all realize that not all straight men are like these few ignorant fucks, but sometimes it’s hard to make that differentiation when consistently faced with only the stupid ones. Here’s what bugs me. I can understand _why_ these women are avoiding all straight men. The whole extrapolating-from-a-few-to-blame-the-whole kind of thinking is a common root of bigotry. It’s one thing to understand. It’s quite another to _accept_ that kind of thinking. Frankly, the way you worded things, it sounds like you’ve just kind of accepted their prejudices. Are they not worth fighting against too? Do you take them to task for that kind of thinking? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/145 "2003-06-04T18:41:53Z")
And for the record, **Esprix** , I fully intended to stay out of this thread for several reasons, not the least of which is that I consider you a friend and I honestly don’t enjoy taking you to task when we disagree. I _wanted_ to say something right from the start, because I was **extraordinarily** offended by your thread title, the “disclaimers” within notwithstanding. But I refrained, because I hoped you didn’t _really_ mean it like it came across. And then you had to go and type the above. That you could say, “I consider it my responsibility to remind people that the gay community is as diverse as humanity itself, and that those few are not representative of the entire community,” in one breath and then “extend the disgust you feel towards [an] entire social group; in this case, straight men,” in another, absolutely astounds me. You have, on several occasions, asked people here to consider words they’ve said/typed from the perspective of the receiver of those words, and if the receiver claims offense, to show consideration by apologizing and henceforth abolishing said offensive language from further use. It’s now my turn to say the same to you. I _am_ offended by what you’ve written here. I would appreciate an acknowledgement of the hurt you’ve caused me by your prejudiced and unkind remarks. I would further appreciate a retraction and an apology for having offended me, as well as a significant portion of the membership here. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/146 "2003-06-04T18:50:44Z")
**Trion** , I said I understand it, I didn’t say I condoned it. I always encourage all of my friends to be open to new people. **Shayna** , I did acknowledge people were offended. I did recognize I was wrong. I did apologize. I won’t do it again. What else do you want me to do? Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/147 "2003-06-04T18:55:02Z")
**gobear** , with all due respect, if our esteemed **Esprix** had made his clarification and apology HERE (I didn’t read the other thread and I don’t have to in order to comment on the content of the TITLE of THIS thread) and then **left it at that** , I would gladly ease off of your homeboy. The problem is that he apparently **didn’t mean what he said** , because he came back here **after** that supposed apology and retraction and said equally offensive things, again, coloring all straight men with the same damn brush. It simply doesn’t work if you say it, retract it, and then KEEP SAYING IT. **Esprix** , you said what you said. Period. Those _are_ your words in the quote box, are they not? You may have thrown in an example to illustrate your point, but **it’s still your point**. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/148 "2003-06-04T18:55:12Z")
I missed this thread until today, but I wanted to give a big thank you to \*\*Esprix, and **gobear** too. I sometimes feel that many gay men are not especially interested in lesbian issues (and, in fairness, that many lesbians are not interested in gay male issues), so I always like to see the gay men sticking up for the gay women. And the particular subject of the OP, the treatment of lesbians (and bisexual women) and female/female sex as nothing more than a sideshow for the entertainment of straight men, is a pet peeve of mine…or perhaps even more than a pet peeve. I’ve called people out on the SDMB for it before, and I’ve seen other posters such as **KellyM** do the same, but it rarely does much good. The usual response is straight men saying that the person objecting needs to loosen up, stop trying to control what other people think, and to essentially put up with or even enjoy sexual advances from people who must know that they will be unwelcome. I’ve often thought of starting a Pit thread on the subject myself, but I am not very good at starting Pit threads, and all things considered I think this thread has probably done a better job of things than one I started could have. Believe me, I would have said far worse things about straight men than **Esprix** has. Anyway, it seems that at least a few people have decided to be more careful about the things they say to and about lesbians. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/149 "2003-06-04T18:57:28Z")
I may be the only Doper who knows **Baldwin** IRL, so I feel obligated to mention some aspects of the man that _may_ not be readily apparent from perusing a three-line post in one thread (YPPMV). Over the four decades in which I’ve been interacting with **Baldwin** , I’ve personally seen no other person so completely willing and unafraid to speak out --and act-- against intolerance, prejudice or plain jugheaded behavior, including the stereotyping of ethnic or cultural groups. While I could share stories in which **Baldwin** has placed himself in social and even physical jeopardy by following his conscience, I don’t feel that’s owed to the OP. A fair answer from **Baldwin** _is_ perhaps owed, but I’ll have to call him tonight to tell him to read this thread, as his username isn’t in the title and I don’t think he does vanity searches. I’ll let him speak for himself (or not) however he feels like doing so; he certainly doesn’t need my help. But, **Esprix** , I felt I owed it to _two_ good persons ( **Baldwin** and a certain gay man with a chip on his shoulder) to let you know that sometimes a careless, unfunny, cliche’d crudity is just a thoughtless and tone-deaf utterance, and not a standard by which the utterer wishes to mark an ignorant worldview. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/150 "2003-06-04T19:05:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > > **Shayna** , I did acknowledge people were offended. I did recognize I was wrong. I did apologize. I won’t do it again. What else do you want me to do? Read my post above, where I addressed **gobear** … **STOP SAYING IGNORANT SHIT ABOUT STRAIGHT MEN AND QUIT TRYING TO DEFEND YOURSELF FOR HAVING DONE SO.** That’s all. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/151 "2003-06-04T19:12:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\*I did recognize I was wrong. I did apologize. I won’t do it again. What else do you want me to do? > > Esprix \*\* Thanks for the apologies, I missed them before, and it’s a sign of class. The only other thing you may want to consider doing is cutting back on the [martyr complex](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=3516339#post3516339) though. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/152 "2003-06-04T19:34:16Z")
**Shayna** , what I meant _when I first posted this thread_ was that it is human nature to attribute the actions of one to the actions of the whole. _What I realize now_ is that what I wrote came across as stereotyping _all_ straight men, which was exactly what I _didn’t_ want to do. This was wrong. I was wrong. I apologize - again. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/153 "2003-06-04T20:05:43Z")
**Esprix** , I accept. Thank you. Now go and sin no more. 😉 {{Hugs}} ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/154 "2003-06-04T21:31:47Z")
My opinion on this is that **Esprix** made a perfectly human mistake in lumping all straight men in with the jackasses that make these comments, and then he acknowledged it and backed off. He shouldn’t be crucified for it. Let’s hope he remembers this before crucifying people for making the same human mistake and generalizing about those lispy/tidy/overdramatic/butch/straight-hating gays. ---
**Author:** ![TaxGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@TaxGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TaxGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/155 "2003-06-04T22:18:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hamlet \* > \*\*Thanks for the apologies, I missed them before, and it’s a sign of class. The only other thing you may want to consider doing is cutting back on the [martyr complex](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=3516339#post3516339) though. \*\* A-fucking-men! We are really really really NOT out to get you, **Esprix** , I promise. If you keep seeing offense at every corner, then maybe the problem is with the seer and not the doer. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/156 "2003-06-04T22:41:40Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **TaxGuy** _ > > We are really really really NOT out to get you, **Esprix** , I promise. If you keep seeing offense at every corner, then maybe the problem is with the seer and not the doer. _Excuse me?_ You were the one that started attacking me in the first place! Esprix ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/157 "2003-06-04T22:55:17Z")
Just a comment from the side…Esprix’s comments about straight men didn’t particularly offend me, and on the flip side of that coin I don’t see the offense in a lot of other places that Esprix does. I’m just not very easily offended, I never have been. :shrugs: But, I think that this is turning into a pile-on only because Esprix is usually quick to point out this type of behavior in others. When I first read that, I didn’t take offense, but – my hypocrisy meter nearly exploded. I was surprised that he was the one saying these things, and I’d wager that’s part of what’s going on here with others now. But, in any case … he’s apologized. Two times, actually. Let it go, people. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/158 "2003-06-05T02:21:47Z")
**Esprix** , my friend, you’re starting to sound like a shrill, humorless martyr. A fatuous, pompous ass; a hypersensitive, sulking whiner. A babbling lackwit. Possibly a fucking idiot. However, having read your posts in many threads, I know you’re **not** any of these things. But in this case you’re **acting** like one. A little background for those who haven’t pored through all the relevant posts in this and the “Finding Nemo” thread: That thread dealt with the insanely intolerant people who are terribly upset with Disney and Pixar because, in the new movie _Finding Nemo_, a character is voiced by talented comedian Ellen Degeneres, who is a lesbian. (Or as I sometimes see it written, “an admitted lesbian”, as if it were a crime.) Given the absurdity of anyone’s seeing evil in the fact that the voice of an animated fish is that of a lesbian, the thread soon became full of jokes. I stuck my toe into this particular fishpond with a corny joke (at the same time complimenting Ms. Degeneres as an excellent casting choice because of her expert comedic inflection and timing). **Esprix** apparently took offense at what I felt was a joke sufficient old to be harmless, and expressed his unease thusly: > [@](#): > > HAW HAW! > > Now go fuck yourself, you asshole. > > Esprix Kinda harsh. All the perfumes of Arabia won’t sweeten _that_ little nugget. Further, in the OP of this thread, Esprix has taken it upon himself to read my mind, and has found that I made a corny joke because I’m an ignorant bigot. As it happens, he’s mistaken. Possibly he was reading the mind of the guy in the next apartment; I imagine directional control can be a problem with those tight-beam telepathic searches. **Esprix** , feel free to call me a jackass. Anybody who knows me, especially members of my family, could confirm that assessment; it’s just my personality. However, as far as I know, I’m not ignorant. (Doesn’t that sound like something GWB might say?) At least, I’ve been an intensely interested student of both women and human sexuality in all its aspects since – well, probably since before you were born, although, not knowing your age, I may be wrong about that. And certainly not a bigot. I’m sure that the patently bigoted statements you’ve made in this thread don’t reflect your real beliefs, but were written under the influence of strong emotion. You’ve also apologized, which shows character. I will overlook this entire thread and not hold it against you in future communications. And, even if I did take offense, I wouldn’t extend that feeling to all gays. Bigotry and tribalism are part of human nature; that’s why I’m sometimes not too crazy about our species as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/159 "2003-06-05T03:37:53Z")
Well thank God that gay men **never** make any type of misogynist or gender-bending or lewd or oversexed comments. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/160 "2003-06-05T05:57:09Z")
So after all this, **Baldwin** , you still look at what you said as “a harmless joke,” despite the fact that there are a fair number of people who have said it’s offensive? Esprix [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207.md?page=9)