# Could you please stop making straight men look like ignorant fucks? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 2, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207 "2003-06-02T20:10:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/161 "2003-06-05T10:54:22Z")
No, he said that it was a corny joke and that he **thought** it was old enough to be harmless. He was clearly wrong in that thought and gives no indication whatsoever that he does not realise that. Is that the only thing you can respond to in the entire post? pan ---
**Author:** ![TaxGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@TaxGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TaxGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/162 "2003-06-05T15:10:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by TaxGuy_ > > **We are really really really NOT out to get you, Esprix, I promise. If you keep seeing offense at every corner, then maybe the problem is with the seer and not the doer.** > > \*\*_Excuse me?_ You were the one that started attacking me in the first place! > > Esprix \*\* God, the irony is thick and delicious. You just proved my point. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/163 "2003-06-05T16:39:16Z")
Oh, right, **TaxGuy** - you didn’t _intend_ to attack me in your first post, and I’m just _reading into_ it. Fuck you. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/164 "2003-06-05T16:42:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kabbes \* > > No, he said that it was a corny joke and that he **thought** it was old enough to be harmless. > > He was clearly wrong in that thought and gives no indication whatsoever that he does not realise that. Really? Where’s his apology? And I will reiterate that I intentionally did not want to make this about **Baldwin** or any of the _specific_ comments (or posters) on this board, but it was those comments that angered me about the cavalcade of similar comments I’ve heard time and time and time again, and I’d just reached my steam point. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/165 "2003-06-05T19:45:45Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by **Esprix** :_ > > …I intentionally did not want to make this about **Baldwin** or any of the _specific_ comments (or posters) on this board… So… you paraphrased a comment from him in the text of a link to the page in which the comment was made, called the person who made the comment “…an ignorant choad whose swaggering _machismo_ makes you out to be exactly the fuckhead you truly are…”, and explained how your shame at his comments makes you want to “make more lesbian friends.” (Surely there’s better reasons to befriend people than as a symbolic reaction to other people’s ignorance about their particular race, gender or sexual identity? Just sayin’…) But you don’t want anyone to “make” the thread about specific posters or specific comments. And **Baldwin** ’s free to apologize -to you- for mouthing a lame cliched attitude about lesbians while complimenting a lesbian in a thread (not your thread) discussing ignorant attitudes about lesbians. Maybe it’s just because I know you’re talking about a person who, if I remember your approximate age correctly, actually _has_ been actively fighting discrimination and ignorance longer than you’ve been alive, but I feel compelled to say: **get over yourself**. I think perhaps most lesbians will survive just fine without your deconstructive moral analyses of joke-posters, and I think perhaps most SDMB participants require a bit more evidence than the repetition of a crude cliché to justify the moral condemnation of their fellow posters —even by implication. If you want to morally condemn anti-gay/lesbian attitudes in general, than do so in a general way; by attaching specific comments as illustrative of “ignorant choads”, _you_ made the thread about specific posters. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/166 "2003-06-05T20:59:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Iteki \* > \*\*Either way, I would like to just say “Thanks!” to Esprix and the other queer-boys for sticking up for the girls on this one 🙂 Mwah! > > FTR, I don’t find the comment specifically offensive, just sad, and depressing and angering and pathetic and just plain _not funny_. > Why? Cos I’ve heard it a hundred time, and gotten shit when I didn’t say yeah, and when I didn’t laugh it up when they backtracked. It’s not funny cos on the rare occasions when I go to a queer club cos I want to have a dance with my wife, I get the same damned thing, I have been offered fucking money to join in, or even “just watch” on numerous occasions. That’s why its not funny. You guys have the whole fucking world, my sex-life has to be all about you too? \*\* FWIW, as a straight guy, I think that many, if not most, straight guys don’t really want to watch a lesbian couple do it, or “do” a lesbian couple, what they want is to watch two straight girls who like to play with each other if only to get the guy excited. Unfortunately, this is called “lesbianism” instead of “group sex” or “an orgy.” I know people like this, and the woman of the hetero couple is not a lesbian, or bi, has no interest in lesbianism, or bi, but likes playing with straight women on occasion. Couple that with the ignorant among us think that actual lesbians would like to be “straight-orgy-women” and that is why guys will offer money to lesbians, treating them like sexual candy machines. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/167 "2003-06-05T21:15:36Z")
**xeno** , if I had wanted to flame **Baldwin** specifically, I would have specifically mentioned his name and directed my remarks specifically to him. I used his remarks as an example and as a reference as to what kind of attitude I was ranting about. Yes, he did something I found offensive, but he’s surely not the only one. My intention was to rail against _all_ such usages, not _just_ his. The “you” was meant to be directed to those who make such remarks, not specifically or only **Baldwin**. > [@](#): > > (Surely there’s better reasons to befriend people than as a symbolic reaction to other people’s ignorance about their particular race, gender or sexual identity? Just sayin’…) It was a turn of phrase, not meant to be taken literally. > [@](#): > > And **Baldwin** ’s free to apologize -to you- for mouthing a lame cliched attitude about lesbians while complimenting a lesbian in a thread (not your thread) discussing ignorant attitudes about lesbians. You’re right, he is free to apologize to someone he insulted - just like I was free to apologize to **Shayna** and the straight people that I offended inadvertently. Hmmm. Isn’t that interesting… > [@](#): > > Maybe it’s just because I know you’re talking about a person who, if I remember your approximate age correctly, actually _has_ been actively fighting discrimination and ignorance longer than you’ve been alive, but I feel compelled to say: **get over yourself**. Then maybe he should have known better. > [@](#): > > I think perhaps most lesbians will survive just fine without your deconstructive moral analyses of joke-posters, and I think perhaps most SDMB participants require a bit more evidence than the repetition of a crude cliché to justify the moral condemnation of their fellow posters —even by implication. I see. So the fact that I was offended is completely irrelevant, since “most lesbians will survive just fine” without me. Great. Thanks for that update. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/168 "2003-06-05T23:34:19Z")
**Esprix** , here’s your update: the fact that you were offended by _the specific usage_ by **Baldwin** of that lame half-witticism is the only relevant use you could make of a cite to it. Instead, you assigned _to him_, on the basis of that _one usage_, all the sins of oversexed, overly aggressive, self-involved assholes who harass lesbians anywhere in the world. That was arrogant and presumptive, and _that’s the beef I have with you over this._ That’s the only point I’m trying to make to you here. Instead of bluntly stating to **Baldwin** that you found that joke offensive, you instantly flew off the handle over what has now become blindingly obvious was an ironically intended usage of that chestnut and projected the soul of Fred Phelps onto a poster you’ve never even interacted with before. You would not stand for that treatment by others, and I’ll be damned if I see my friend smeared by that treatment from you. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/169 "2003-06-06T03:05:42Z")
_Posted by Esprix:_ > [@](#): > > Really? Where’s his apology? Didn’t realize you were waiting for an apology. If I inadvertently offended any lesbians, I do apologize to them; that was definitely not my intention. As for you, however, let me quote a line Peter Falk delivered in the recent movie _Undisputed_: “I’m sorry; did I offend you? Fuck you!” Frankly, Dude, I’m starting to think you’re a bit of a muttonhead. However, I’ve not yet regretted an act of generosity, and I’m not going to start here. I’m still going to ignore all of your slightly hysterical statements here, and will gladly read your posts anywhere else, without prejudice. That’s the kind of guy I am. By the way, I went to see _Finding Nemo_ today; good movie, in large part because of the excellent voice talents involved (Albert Brooks, Ellen Degeneres and Geoffrey Rush, to name a few). ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/170 "2003-06-06T03:34:01Z")
**xeno** , I can’t explain any clearer that I was only using his remark as the most current example of something I’ve heard over and over and over and over and over again in real life and online, so I guess I’ll just have to settle for being a jerk to you. And as to this: > [@](#): > > Instead, you assigned _to him_, on the basis of that _one usage_, all the sins of oversexed, overly aggressive, self-involved assholes who harass lesbians anywhere in the world. That was arrogant and presumptive, and _that’s the beef I have with you over this._ And, for the umpteenth time, I’ve already apologized for this, twice. What more do I need to do before you let it go? Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/171 "2003-06-06T03:36:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Baldwin \* > > Didn’t realize you were waiting for an apology. If I inadvertently offended any lesbians, I do apologize to them; that was definitely not my intention. Thank you. Despite the debacle of this thread, I hope I never hear those words from you again. > [@](#): > > As for you, however, let me quote a line Peter Falk delivered in the recent movie _Undisputed_: > > “I’m sorry; did I offend you? Fuck you!” Yeah, gee, swell, thanks. Proves once again that I don’t count. I’m a “muttonhead” because I find offensive things offensive. Whatever. Have a spiffy day. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/172 "2003-06-06T05:04:43Z")
So in conclusion, it would have been better to create a thread explaining why the joke is offensive, rather than making huge generalizations and going way overboard on people who made lame jokes. Usually, a joke like “I am a lesbian trapped in a man’s body” is sort of a way for a straight man to claim lesbianism for himself. It tries to turn lesbian sex from being between only the participants, to being a show for the man. It tries to insinuate the man into the lesbian’s love life. It is usually based purely on sexuality: the man likes women, so does the lesbian; they have so much in common! It is also perceived as similar to men who ask to watch or join in, although it is likely the person making the joke did not have that in mind. In the case of the joke, it is better to explain why it is offensive. It is not the same as asking to watch or join in, and it is not as self explanatory. The other side is that I think there are times when the words themselves should not be offensive. There are people who are not turned on by lesbians, and would never want to watch lesbians together, but who could still feel something like what is expressed by the words of the joke. For them the sexuality is irrelevent. The sentiment is based on an attraction to an actual person, rather than to their sexuality. What if you are a man who is very attracted to a woman who you find out is a lesbian? What if you like the same things, get along great, and think they are your soulmate? You might wish that your gender did not get in the way. Then the words would mean something like “My soulmate is a lesbian, I should be one too.” This shouldn’t be offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/173 "2003-06-06T06:23:11Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Nightime** _ > > So in conclusion, it would have been better to create a thread explaining why the joke is offensive, rather than making huge generalizations and going way overboard on people who made lame jokes. I still don’t feel I went “way overboard,” except inadvertently implicating the entirety of the straight male population. Everyone else seems to think I did, but I stand by it. And not every thread has to be a Great Debate - sometimes you just want to vent. I reached my steam point, and I did. > [@](#): > > Usually, a joke like “I am a lesbian trapped in a man’s body” is sort of a way for a straight man to claim lesbianism for himself. Which he has absolutely no business doing, IMHO. This is why I find it so fucking ignorant and offensive, for all the reasons you described so well. > [@](#): > > What if you are a man who is very attracted to a woman who you find out is a lesbian? What if you like the same things, get along great, and think they are your soulmate? You might wish that your gender did not get in the way. Then the words would mean something like “My soulmate is a lesbian, I should be one too.” This shouldn’t be offensive. And I don’t believe I ever talked about the instances of the phrases outside the examples I provided - as purile, ignorant “jokes” that I find offensive. Can we let this thread die now? I think everyone’s made their point. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/174 "2003-06-06T06:24:34Z")
Actually, let’s let this thread dies. GD is making me want to start a new Pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/175 "2003-06-06T07:00:03Z")
> [@](#): > > I still don’t feel I went “way overboard,” except inadvertently implicating the entirety of the straight male population. Everyone else seems to think I did, but I stand by it. I thought I posted something on this, but I took your OP as a very obvious “I don’t want to feel this way about straight guys, but you are making it harder for me?” which doesn’t itself paint straight guys as anything at all. The implication that the bad behavior of one person inclines one to falsely generalize to a group is not itself a stereotype: in fact it’s a recognition both of the stereotype and the fact that we’re human and have to fight against this tendancy all the time. And furthermore I…[/thread] ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/176 "2003-06-06T11:08:30Z")
On the plus side, nobody (I think) made an irredeemable ass of themself in this thread… [sub]And would I be an irredeemable ass if I made a lame “let’s all kiss and make up, but get your hand off my knee” type of joke?[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207/177 "2003-06-06T15:27:45Z")
Hmm, that thread tag didn’t work right for some reason. 🙂 Let’s try again… [/thread] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-please-stop-making-straight-men-look-like-ignorant-fucks/179207.md?page=8)