# Could you purposely break a rat's back for research? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 24, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423 "2009-09-24T22:00:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/1 "2009-09-24T22:00:17Z")
I know I couldn’t. The very idea gives me the creeps. Talk about bad karma! And don’t even ask about a kitten or puppy. I realize that research is needed to discover how to repair a person’s back that was in an accident, but there’s got to be a better way. I’m not paralyzed or in a wheelchair so maybe I can’t really say how I would feel, but if someone said that I “might” be cured, if someone broke a puppy’s back, I’d say no way. Fill me up with stem cells! ---
**Author:** ![Chopper9760](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Chopper9760](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chopper9760)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/2 "2009-09-24T22:36:42Z")
Yep, sure could. I really wouldn’t want to make a career out of it, sounds like a depressing gig but on the whole, entirely worth while. Animal testing is an essential component of medical advancement and testing. Think of the tragedy that could have been avoided if Thalidomide had been tested on animals. I don’t like it, not one bit, but I’d rather continue to raise the quality of life for humans than save some cute fuzzies from being tortured. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/3 "2009-09-24T22:51:12Z")
Could I do it personally? No. But if I’m in a laboratory and you tell me that if I do this (and for some reason nobody else can), it helps cure my little brother’s cancer? Ok, I’ll do it. I’ll feel bad about it and I’ll probably throw up, but I’d be willing to make that deal. > [@Mangosteen](#): > > I realize that research is needed to discover how to repair a person’s back that was in an accident, but there’s got to be a better way. Name the better way and I’m sold. But from where I sit it would be inhumane to test them on people without the maximum amount of information. > [@](#): > > Fill me up with stem cells! Just for the record, stem cells have been tested on animals for years. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/4 "2009-09-24T22:53:41Z")
Yes, I used to do animal research undergrad and grad school and have done worse things to rats than break their back. I have done brain surgery on lots of them and installed drug delivery and electrode implants for experiments that last months. I have done other surgeries like castration on hundreds of others and given thousands of injections to them as well. It never bothered me in the least. As a matter of fact, I really can’t stand rats and I was always the first one to step up to put other researcher’s animals through the CO2 chamber at the end of experiments if they expressed concern that they would be affected by it because they had bonded with their test animals. I am certainly not into animal cruelty and always followed ethics protocols but you disassociate the animals as anything other than lab equipment in those settings or at least I do. I think I would feel horrible about doing extreme experiments with puppies and kittens but that doesn’t come up all that often in research science. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/5 "2009-09-24T22:54:03Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > but there’s got to be a better way. There isn’t. Animal research continues to be necessary. This isn’t a case of sadists pointlessly torturing animals. Animal research tells us all kinds of important things. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/6 "2009-09-24T22:56:46Z")
Afaik, you can do whatever you want to any animal classified as “vermin.” They are not protected under animal cruelty laws. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/7 "2009-09-25T00:47:43Z")
I study flies. I routinely slaughter thousands of the little critters at a time. No one cares. I don’t do anything particularly cruel to them, as they tend to be anesthetized when I crush them into goo. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/8 "2009-09-25T00:49:22Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Afaik, you can do whatever you want to any animal classified as “vermin.” > > They are not protected under animal cruelty laws. I missed this. There are very strict ethics rules that cover rats and other research animals. Generally, the closer their relationship to humans, the tighter the rules. But researchers take these rules very seriously, and a great deal of time and money is spent to avoid unnecessary pain and cruelty to animals. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/9 "2009-09-25T00:52:12Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > I study flies. What is the nature of your research? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/10 "2009-09-25T01:18:25Z")
I can and have. I’d estimate at least 50 rats and a few hundred mice and two pigs have died at my hands in the course of my research and training. I did **not** enjoy it, but I sure learned a lot. There is no substitute for animal experimentation when it comes to certain types of healthcare research. Unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![Ruffian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71e660/32.png) [@Ruffian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruffian)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/11 "2009-09-25T01:20:46Z")
Yup, I could. Wouldn’t enjoy it, but I would do it. And I’m a complete animal nut. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/12 "2009-09-25T01:26:14Z")
Love critters, and am a vegetarian partially for animal cruelty concerns. However, we really can’t do medical research without animal experimentation, at least at the start, and I’m definitely in favor of it - and sometimes it involves things we’d rather not think about. It’s not a perfect analog to humans but it’s important. I haven’t broken a rat’s back, but as an undergrad in a lab, we chopped off the heads of guinea pigs and analyzed their brain tissue. I’m not as sure about the private industry end of things, but research at hospitals/universities on animals is highly regulated, and goes through a committee to determine whether or not it should be carried out, just like research on humans does. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/13 "2009-09-25T01:37:26Z")
I have probably killed thousands of mice, hundreds of rats and a handful of guinea pigs. I don’t enjoy it or take it lightly. It’s a necessity. Animal research sucks. There is huge variability, necessitating large numbers of animals to hit statistics. There are tons of rules (tumors can only be 1 cm2 in a tumor study, animals losing more than 20% of their body weight must be sacrificed in a colitis study etc…). These rules require me to be in the lab every day. Doesn’t matter if it’s Christmas. So, we don’t do it cause we like it. If there were a computer program to simulate it, we would use it. But, how would we program that computer? We need the data. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/14 "2009-09-25T01:38:28Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > I’m not as sure about the private industry end of things, but research at hospitals/universities on animals is highly regulated, and goes through a committee to determine whether or not it should be carried out, just like research on humans does. Having worked in both areas, I’ll say in industry the rules are MUCH stricter than academia. I saw a lot of rules flouted routinely in academia that would get me instantly fired. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/15 "2009-09-25T01:44:53Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Having worked in both areas, I’ll say in industry the rules are MUCH stricter than academia. I saw a lot of rules flouted routinely in academia that would get me instantly fired. If you can provide them - examples? ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/16 "2009-09-25T01:57:18Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > I missed this. There are very strict **ethics rules** that cover rats and other research animals. My point was you won’t go to jail for using a mousetrap to cut a rat in half. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/17 "2009-09-25T01:58:36Z")
> [@Ruffian](#): > > Yup, I could. Wouldn’t enjoy it, but I would do it. And I’m a complete animal nut. What’s up with only the cute animals being protected? ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/18 "2009-09-25T02:05:07Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > What’s up with only the cute animals being protected? Are you including rats as cute, or not? (I do.) And if you think they don’t do research on dogs and cats, you’re mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/19 "2009-09-25T02:12:19Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Are you including rats as cute, or not? (I do.) And if you think they don’t do research on dogs and cats, you’re mistaken. I’m referring to “animal nuts” and their choice of which animals to get nuts about. Actually I started a new thread on this topic: > **[Why are only some animals protected?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=533430)** > > We don’t eat dogs, but eat cows. We don’t wear cat fur, but we use lamb skin to wash our cars. Killing seals is cruel, but my wife just bought Omega 3 capsules made out of distilled krill. “Killing a puppy” is a euphemism for extreme cruelty, but... ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423/20 "2009-09-25T02:14:57Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > What’s up with only the cute animals being protected? It is a pretty strong human psychological trait. Rats are very smart and that is why they are used for tons of psychological research. I am very sure that they are much smarter than cats in terms of the way humans identify intelligence but they have a disgusting tail, discolored teeth, and strange poop. Just like everything, including pop TV culture, raw attractiveness counts for a lot no matter what other attributes the mammal in question has. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-purposely-break-a-rats-back-for-research/511423.md?page=2)