# Could you ride a bike if... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 28, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888 "2013-09-28T23:34:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888/21 "2013-09-30T22:09:01Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That “No BS Machine” is a good experiment, but it doesn’t actually control for all of the variables. First, a bike tends to be stable in part due to trail: If the bike starts leaning over, the leaning itself turns the front fork, in such a way to correct the lean and the direction. It’s possible that the riders were simply unable to overcome this inherent stability: One could test this with another rigged bike, where the fork was fixed in place, or with the fork bent in such a way as to have zero trail. > > Second, it jumps from an experiment that shows that turning the handlebars is necessary, to a conclusion that countersteering is necessary. But this leaves out the possibility of direct steering. Can one turn left by turning the handlebars only to the left? The experiment doesn’t answer that question. Sure you can, just go slooowly, but fast enough not to fall over, BTW my pedal powered cycle does not use counter steering. Guess why? ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888/22 "2013-09-30T22:28:47Z")
> [@Lanzy](#): > > Sure you can, just go slooowly, but fast enough not to fall over, BTW my pedal powered cycle does not use counter steering. Guess why? It is a recumbent with three wheels (or something like that). Right??? Further question. Does a skateboard utilize counter steering even though it has four wheels? I would guess yes but don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888/23 "2013-09-30T23:25:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That “No BS Machine” is a good experiment, but it doesn’t actually control for all of the variables. First, a bike tends to be stable in part due to trail: If the bike starts leaning over, the leaning itself turns the front fork, in such a way to correct the lean and the direction. It’s possible that the riders were simply unable to overcome this inherent stability: That was exactly the point of that particular experiment: To prove to riders with a stock bike that they are not steering by leaning. They are leaning with the bike when it steers but they are not initiating the turn by leaning. Using a modified bike to get it to turn by leaning would prove something, but something else entirely. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888/24 "2013-10-01T05:13:05Z")
I can ride for miles with my hands in my lap or on the gas tank and stay in my lane even as the crown of the road changes or there is a very gentle curve by just shifting my weight Very ineffective when in towns or going slow. Ridiculous amounts of trail may help this. Yeah, hard tail choppers but still. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888/25 "2013-10-01T05:49:51Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > I can ride for miles with my hands in my lap or on the gas tank and stay in my lane even as the crown of the road changes or there is a very gentle curve by just shifting my weight > > Very ineffective when in towns or going slow. > > Ridiculous amounts of trail may help this. > > Yeah, hard tail choppers but still. Weld the fork to the frame then try it and get back to us if you are still alive. We like field experiments. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888/26 "2013-10-01T07:38:49Z")
For a Unicycle, yes. For a bicycle (your question) you could have something like a ball roller instead of a rear wheel (or a very small rear wheel on a fork) and it will look like a boneshaker. But it will still turn like a unicycle. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888/27 "2013-10-01T18:31:59Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > Weld the fork to the frame then try it and get back to us if you are still alive. We like field experiments. I was replying to the post above mine, #23 which had nothing to do with welded forks. :rolleyes: I made no claim about welded forks. :smack: Small thread drift which happens sometimes. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888/28 "2013-10-02T05:43:35Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > I was replying to the post above mine, #23 which had nothing to do with welded forks. :rolleyes: > > I made no claim about welded forks. :smack: > > Small thread drift which happens sometimes. 🆒 No problem. I’m a serious bicyclist and I don’t claim to understand the physics of it but maybe that’s what entices me to the beauty of it. Some of the best hours of my life have been on a bicycle. (I did ride a motorcycle in my younger days so I get that too but I’m done with that.) Keep riding, keep wondering, be safe and enjoy! Now, is anybody going to address my question about skateboards? I don’t have one so I can’t figure this out on my own. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888/29 "2013-10-02T06:07:12Z")
Counter steering entails turning the opposite direction you want to go to and leaning towards the turn. This will momentarily dis-align the front wheel from the back as it does the turn. In short, CS works for two aligned wheels. With a skateboard, putting one’s weight on one side dis-aligns the front wheels from the rear, allowing the turn. ---
**Author:** ![Glazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a88e57/32.png) [@Glazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glazer)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888/30 "2013-10-02T06:08:35Z")
Skateboards steer into a turn with the front wheels and counter steer with the rear. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888/31 "2013-10-02T06:10:01Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > Now, is anybody going to address my question about skateboards? I don’t have one so I can’t figure this out on my own. Skateboards have two pairs of gimbaled casters that respond to the angle of the platform. When you shift weight to list the platform to one side, both sets of casters move toward each other on the downward side and away from each other on the upward side, resulting in a double steering action. There is no issue relating to balancing the entire thing on two wheels as with a bicycle, because the skateboard has four wheels. The balance issue is a matter of finding where you need to have your body mass for the board to align the wheels in the direction you want to go. Somewhere I saw a wintersports toy that consisted of a snowmobile track, a motor to drive it, and a platform to stand on with a handle. Like one of those scooter things but for snow. The rider would actually steer it with body lean because leaning to one side would cause the track to arc (bend at its joints) in the opposite direction. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888/32 "2013-10-02T13:03:50Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > Further question. Does a skateboard utilize counter steering even though it has four wheels? I would guess yes but don’t know. No, you lean into the direction you want to turn on a skateboard. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888/33 "2013-10-02T13:51:50Z")
The wikipedia article explains a lot, pretty clearly. I have a good sense of the fact that we lean by countersteering; it’s possible on a motorcycle to countersteer to get the bike to bank to one side but still go straight (adjusting body weight to counterbalance, probably not feasible on bigger bikes). All I mean to say here is that it’s quite obvious that applying pressure to turn the wheel causes the bike to lean, more than it does turn the wheel (just as we learned in physics, and as we can easily see with a toy gyroscope. The more confusing part to me is that, on a small motorcycle (and probably a big one but I have no experience there) it’s possible to continue to countersteer all the way through a turn. It’s been a long time, but IIRC, there are two “sweet spots” allowing a stable turn, one where after countersteering, the wheel turns a specific angle into the turn, looking how you’d expect it. The other is a specific angle against the turn. There might be more leaning in that case. In any case, it’s very stable: I might be applying a bit of force to keep the handlebars there, but any attempt to go past the sweet spot meets with rising force, so it feels naturally stable. You can even wiggle the handlebars a bit and they tend to return to the sweet spot seemingly by themselves. Whassupwiddat? In any case, it’s proof that the leaning is what causes the turn (not that I quite understand that part) and not merely the relative angles between front and back wheels. It’s an odd but amusing feeling to be powering in a long curve and look down and see the handlebars pointing the “wrong” way. If my memory serves me, it’s also the easier turn to execute. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888/34 "2013-10-02T13:54:28Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > No, you lean into the direction you want to turn on a skateboard. My guess is that the gyroscopic forces in a skateboard are negligible for most normal manoeuvres. They probably are important for aerials, especially whenever the board loses contact with the feet. That’s the point where my ass would contact the ground, all those many decades ago, so I’m just guessing. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888/35 "2013-10-02T14:15:20Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > No, you lean into the direction you want to turn on a skateboard. Yes, you lean but do the wheels do a counter steer? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888/36 "2013-10-02T15:47:57Z")
> [@](#): > > My guess is that the gyroscopic forces in a skateboard are negligible for most normal manoeuvres. I would imagine so, since they’re also negligible on a bike. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888/37 "2013-10-02T16:22:06Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > The more confusing part to me is that, on a small motorcycle (and probably a big one but I have no experience there) it’s possible to continue to countersteer all the way through a turn. It’s been a long time, but IIRC, there are two “sweet spots” allowing a stable turn, one where after countersteering, the wheel turns a specific angle into the turn, looking how you’d expect it. The other is a specific angle against the turn. There might be more leaning in that case. In any case, it’s very stable: I might be applying a bit of force to keep the handlebars there, but any attempt to go past the sweet spot meets with rising force, so it feels naturally stable. You can even wiggle the handlebars a bit and they tend to return to the sweet spot seemingly by themselves. > > Whassupwiddat? In any case, it’s proof that the leaning is what causes the turn (not that I quite understand that part) and not merely the relative angles between front and back wheels. > > It’s an odd but amusing feeling to be powering in a long curve and look down and see the handlebars pointing the “wrong” way. If my memory serves me, it’s also the easier turn to execute. This seems odd to me, but I’ve never ridden a motorcycle. The only “Whassupwiddat” I can come up with is that it’s because the tires are much fatter compared with a bicycle, allowing you to do that. The second stable point may have to do with the cross-sectional shape of the tires. If they were circles, maybe there wouldn’t be a second sweet spot. (This post is all a WAG.) ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888/38 "2013-10-02T17:22:35Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Somewhere I saw a wintersports toy that consisted of a snowmobile track, a motor to drive it, and a platform to stand on with a handle. Like one of those scooter things but for snow. The rider would actually steer it with body lean because leaning to one side would cause the track to arc (bend at its joints) in the opposite direction. Sounds like a similar mechanism to turning on skis, where transferring weight onto the inside edges forces the ski to bend and carve around in an arc. I still can’t believe nobody has tested a bike with the steering fixed solid, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-ride-a-bike-if/669888.md?page=1)