# Could you start a country this way? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 7, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044 "2012-03-07T17:18:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/1 "2012-03-07T17:18:28Z")
In a Cafe Society thread I started on upcoming television pilots, one stood out for me: **Last Resort** Logline: Centers on the crew of a U.S. nuclear submarine who, after ignoring an order to fire nuclear missiles, wind up being hunted and escape to a NATO outpost where they declare themselves to be the world’s smallest nuclear nation. Is there any way this could work? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/2 "2012-03-07T17:35:47Z")
Without the industrial infrastructure to maintain the highly complex technology they depend on, I can’t see it lasting very long. Certainly not as long as it would take for one of the big boy countries to drop a nuke on them and eliminate the competition. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/3 "2012-03-07T17:37:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In a Cafe Society thread I started on upcoming television pilots, one stood out for me: > > **Last Resort** > Logline: Centers on the crew of a U.S. nuclear submarine who, after ignoring an order to fire nuclear missiles, wind up being hunted and escape to a NATO outpost where they declare themselves to be the world’s smallest nuclear nation. > > Is there any way this could work? Well, technically, any country can recognize anything they want to recognize as an independent state. I mean, no one is going to stop Congress from recognizing the independent republic of my yacht. But traditionally, countries need permanent territory to be recognized as such; a boat or sub wouldn’t qualify. I suppose the crew could conquer a landmass, and then they’d have territory; but it seems unlikely that many would recognize such a government. Further - nuclear subs have longer endurance than diesel boats, but it doesn’t last forever. They need resupply, maintenance, and so on. A pariah sub wouldn’t remain seaworthy for very long - and this _would_ be a pariah sub, because - It’s a rogue boat with nuclear weapons (and torpedos!) that answers to no national authority. That would scare every single world government shitless, and quite properly so. No one would want to risk legitimizing such a thing; the crew would be branded as pirates, not as statesmen. What if they launch their birds on a crazy day? What if they lose or sell them? Silly, silly premise. Even sillier when one considers that boomer crews are screened very, very carefully to ensure they will absolutely fire when ordered, and absolutely _not_ fire without orders. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/4 "2012-03-07T17:50:59Z")
Nation states need four things: territory, population, government and capacity (the ability for the third thing to maintain control of the first two). Since the “NATO outpost” is presumably territory belonging to another sovereign state, I don’t see how they’d meet the first one. Aside from that _nobody_ is going to recognize a new state on the basis of a nuclear threat. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/5 "2012-03-07T18:05:18Z")
You aren’t a country just because you say you are a country. You are only a country when other countries say you are a country. Take Sealand for example. > [@](#): > > The Principality of Sealand is an unrecognized entity, located on HM Fort Roughs, a former World War II Maunsell Sea Fort in the North Sea 10 km (six miles) off the coast of Suffolk, England, United Kingdom (51°53’40"N, 1°28’57"E).[6] > > Since 1967, the facility has been occupied by the former British Major Paddy Roy Bates; his associates and family claim that it is an independent sovereign state.[6] While it has been described as the world’s smallest nation,[8] or a micronation,[9] Sealand is not currently officially recognised by any sovereign state. From here: [Principality of Sealand - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand) Sealand, as it exists now, is considered by most to be pretty harmless. If it were to suddenly acquire nukes, though, I would expect that to change rather quickly. Your micro-nuke nation suffers from the same issue. Without the nukes, it’s just a bunch of whackos trying to set up another Sealand type nation, and nobody really cares about that. With the nukes, most other countries would consider it to be a problem that needs to be dealt with, and that is something they would care about. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/6 "2012-03-07T18:10:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Nation states need four things: territory, population, government and capacity (the ability for the third thing to maintain control of the first two). Since the “NATO outpost” is presumably territory belonging to another sovereign state, I don’t see how they’d meet the first one. Isn’t the territory the sub? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/7 "2012-03-07T18:22:11Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Isn’t the territory the sub? Even assuming that a vehicle qualified as “territory” for the purposes of the analysis, the sub is also the property of a sovereign state. The US would have to cede the sub to the… colonists, either actually or constructively. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/8 "2012-03-07T18:37:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there any way this could work? Do they have a flag? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/9 "2012-03-07T18:53:02Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Do they have a flag? Let’s assume they do. Does the “territory” have to be stationary? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/10 "2012-03-07T20:10:01Z")
The territory doesn’t have to be stationary. Nothing has to be anything. But what does it mean to be an “independent country”? You can declare your house an independent country, and print a flag, and issue stamps, and hold elections, and nobody, absolutely nobody will care. Until you stop paying your taxes and obeying the laws of your locality. Even then, you might have no problems, if you just break the law discreetly. Plenty of people grow pot in their homes and don’t get in trouble, because the cops never find out. So you can declare that pot is legal in your country, and you can grow as much pot as you want, and you’ll have absolutely no legal trouble as long as the authorities never become aware of your actions. To be a meaningful “independent country” you have to be able to tell the cops from another country to fuck off, and when you do they fuck right off, because according to them you have the right to tell them to fuck off. It’s not that you say you have they right to tell them to fuck off that’s important, it’s that _they_ say you have the right. And this is why micronations won’t work, because no other countries are going to pretend you’re an independent country. What’s in it for them? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/11 "2012-03-07T20:19:54Z")
I suspect that this new nation’s birth rate would be down there with Vatican City’s. ---
**Author:** ![heathen\_earthling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/13edae/32.png) [@heathen\_earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heathen_earthling)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/12 "2012-03-07T20:34:49Z")
Is the TV show supposed to be taken seriously? That sounds like it would be an interesting comedy pilot. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/13 "2012-03-07T20:37:15Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Do they have a flag? No flag, no country! ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/14 "2012-03-08T14:42:14Z")
Are they going to grow their own food? Where is the NATO outpost? Or are they planning to demand food, medicines, etc. by blackmail? This plot doesn’t strike me as realistic. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/15 "2012-03-08T14:52:19Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > The territory doesn’t have to be stationary. Nothing has to be anything. This is… a curious attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/16 "2012-03-08T15:00:22Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > Are they going to grow their own food? Where is the NATO outpost? Or are they planning to demand food, medicines, etc. by blackmail? > > This plot doesn’t strike me as realistic. It all depends on the NATO land they occupy, I guess, and the cooperation of the people that previously controlled it. ---
**Author:** ![pinqy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a3d4f5/32.png) [@pinqy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinqy)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/17 "2012-03-08T15:18:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In a Cafe Society thread I started on upcoming television pilots, one stood out for me: > > **Last Resort** > Logline: Centers on the crew of a U.S. nuclear submarine who, after ignoring an order to fire nuclear missiles, wind up being hunted and escape to a NATO outpost where they declare themselves to be the world’s smallest nuclear nation. > > Is there any way this could work? In what way do you mean “work?” Could they establish a functioning society? Well, they have power and a machine shop and could cannabilize the sub, so they could be a semi-technological society for a while, though their ability to replace electronics (especially computers) would be very limited for a long time, probably longer than they could set up manufacturing facilities given little chance of replacing some materials and the limited population. Food would be another issue. Would their country be recognized? Probably not. Even if they achieved recognition from some nations, the majority would not, and the US would have valid reason to attack given the theft of its military equipment, desertion, and nuclear weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/18 "2012-03-09T12:58:22Z")
Also, if the sub is parked at any base or outpost for any length of time, it would be a trivial effort for the US air force to launch a cruise missle or twelve to take out the rouge sub. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/19 "2012-03-09T13:04:17Z")
Any historical precedents where a pirate (or mutinied) crew successfully established a sovereign state? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044/20 "2012-03-09T13:08:01Z")
… and to get back to the description of the TV show; are we to presume that the scenario includes an actual nuclear exchange? Because that could make the disposition of a single boomer a relatively low priority for whatever national governments had survived. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-start-a-country-this-way/615044.md?page=2)