# Could you take out the Space Shuttle with a Stinger? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 7, 2008, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640 "2008-02-07T03:51:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/1 "2008-02-07T03:51:02Z")
Could a person on a boat take out the Space Shuttle either right at the launch or right after it left the pad? How close would they need to be? 2 miles? 1 mile? 1/2 mile? ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/2 "2008-02-07T04:08:27Z")
The Stinger’s range is around 3 miles: [FIM-92 Stinger - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIM-92_Stinger) At one time, the restricted area around the launch pad was 65 miles: [http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sts108\_security\_011127.html](http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sts108_security_011127.html) I don’t know if this is still the case. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/3 "2008-02-07T04:08:36Z")
I suppose that it’s possible- it’s certain that the rocket engines have a big enough thermal signature. On the other hand, the seeker may not be calibrated to distinguish or home on a heat source so large or intense- would it home in on the hottest part, or the middle of the entire thing above a certain temp (which would mean it would be homing on the exhaust)? ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/4 "2008-02-07T04:12:42Z")
[QUOTE=beowulff] The Stinger’s range is around 3 miles: [FIM-92 Stinger - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIM-92_Stinger) At one time, the restricted area around the launch pad was 65 miles: [http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sts108\_security\_011127.html](http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sts108_security_011127.html) I don’t know if this is still the case. [/QUOTE] I was assuming that the boat somehow managed to avoid detection. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/5 "2008-02-07T04:14:28Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] I was assuming that the boat somehow managed to avoid detection. [/QUOTE] Than I would think it would be pretty easy. After all, they tend to blow up spontaneously from defective O-rings… ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/6 "2008-02-07T04:16:14Z")
beowulff, thanks for that Wiki link. The very first line says that “The FIM-92 Stinger is a man portable infrared homing surface-to-air missile.” In other words, a 65-mile “No Fly” zone won’t stop someone from shooting it from their backyard, would it? But from what I can tell on Google Maps, there are no residential areas within even 5 miles from the launch sites. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/7 "2008-02-07T04:19:34Z")
One thing I just thought of - There’s probably a pretty narrow window in which to launch the missile - the shuttle quickly reaches speeds faster than the stinger, so it wouldn’t be able to catch it. It looks like it can achieve mach 2 in 2 minutes or so: [http://www.stemnet.nf.ca/CITE/sts\_ascent.htm](http://www.stemnet.nf.ca/CITE/sts_ascent.htm) The stinger has a maximum speed of Mach 2.2 ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/8 "2008-02-07T04:30:05Z")
[QUOTE=beowulff] One thing I just thought of - There’s probably a pretty narrow window in which to launch the missile - the shuttle quickly reaches speeds faster than the stinger, so it wouldn’t be able to catch it. It looks like it can achieve mach 2 in 2 minutes or so: [http://www.stemnet.nf.ca/CITE/sts\_ascent.htm](http://www.stemnet.nf.ca/CITE/sts_ascent.htm) The stinger has a maximum speed of Mach 2.2 [/QUOTE] Ain’t no way the shuttle could outrun it, see [here](http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-92.html): > [@](#): > > The initial boost phase accelerates the Stinger to Mach 2.2 within only 2 seconds, and top-speed at motor burnout can be as high as Mach 2.6 for certain trajactories. If no target is hit after about 17 (± 2) seconds, the missile self-destructs. If you could get a stinger in range, and assuming that it’s guidance would take it to the target, it would easily have the speed. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/9 "2008-02-07T04:34:35Z")
[QUOTE=beowulff] One thing I just thought of - There’s probably a pretty narrow window in which to launch the missile - the shuttle quickly reaches speeds faster than the stinger, so it wouldn’t be able to catch it. It looks like it can achieve mach 2 in 2 minutes or so: [/QUOTE] Not to mention it is 28 miles high at that point, substantially higher than the Stinger’s 12,500 foot ceiling. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/10 "2008-02-07T04:36:25Z")
When _Challenger_ exploded, people were wondering if it had been hit by a missile. One of the guys who worked at Kennedy when the complex was being built pointed out that a number of people died in the swamps surrounding the place while they were building it. Apparently, the swamp’s a gator refuge, so getting into position would be a major obstacle, even if you managed to elude the security forces. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/11 "2008-02-07T04:50:32Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Not to mention it is 28 miles high at that point, substantially higher than the Stinger’s 12,500 foot ceiling. [/QUOTE] Looks like the shuttle is out of range in around 32 seconds: [http://www.spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts121/fdf/121ascentdata.html](http://www.spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts121/fdf/121ascentdata.html) ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/12 "2008-02-07T05:40:10Z")
I would think that anyone within three miles of the launch pad, if not burned to a crisp, would be knocked senseless by the blast of ignition. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/13 "2008-02-07T05:56:45Z")
[QUOTE=Terminus Est] I would think that anyone within three miles of the launch pad, if not burned to a crisp, would be knocked senseless by the blast of ignition. [/QUOTE] I’m so totally not going to dig for a cite on this, even though I know that the topic’s been asked and aswered here, but within a couple of miles of a shuttle launch, the sound pressure’s so great that it’d literally would turn your innards to jelly. (The Saturn V was even worse.) ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/14 "2008-02-07T07:51:33Z")
KSC has some very serious physical security for shuttle launches, both on the ground and off-shore. The IR signature of the vehicle is so huge that I seriously doubt that a missile could get very close to the vehicle before the warhead detonated. The seeker would be blinded. The last time I was down there, I was warned about alligators sunning themselves in the parking lot. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/15 "2008-02-07T09:19:55Z")
[QUOTE=mks57] The IR signature of the vehicle is so huge that I seriously doubt that a missile could get very close to the vehicle before the warhead detonated. The seeker would be blinded [/QUOTE] I wondered, if the stinger missile is seeking the hot exhaust, it would approach from behind wouldn’t it? In that case, would it have a chance of getting close without being deflected by the exhaust gases? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/16 "2008-02-07T09:44:48Z")
In order to hit the shuttle, the stinger must cover half the distance between the launcher and the shutttle - the remaining distance can be divided in half and the remaining quarter divided in half, and so on, _ad infinitum_. It’s impossible to move an infinite number of steps in a finite time, therefore it is impossible for the stinger to reach the shuttle. ---
**Author:** ![puppygod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@puppygod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puppygod)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/17 "2008-02-07T09:51:14Z")
So, summing up all answers: 1. You’d have to get very close to launch site, which means avoiding very tight security, alligators, drowning in swamp and all that while hauling quite big and unwieldy piece of equipment. 2. You’d have to launch Stinger in very narrow time window. If you wait few seconds too long, the shuttle will be too far and too fast. Not to mention, that by that time you would be scorched to death or at least knocked senseless by take-off blast. 3. We had to assume, that Stinger missile: a. Is capable of locking on target with such enormous heat signature without being blinded (unlikely) b. will fly in a trajectory that avoid back blast from shuttle engines (almost impossible) c. proximity fuse work correctly despite highly unusal conditions (unlikely) or d. missile score direct hit into shuttle (even more unlikely, taking b. into account) So, chances are pretty slim to none. Best bet would be getting as close to launchpad as possible and taking it within first seconds. Of course, chances of survival would be pretty nil, then. Another possibility is trying to take it during landing, but again - you need to infiltrate airfield. Plus, chances are that small warhead of stinger might not be effective enough - if you don’t damage control surfaces or at least landing gear, then some holes in the fuselage probably won’t do much. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/18 "2008-02-07T09:55:24Z")
No, because in order to get away, the shuttle must move beyond the stingers range before it is hit, and that will also involve an infinite number of steps in a finite time. Therefore the stinger and shuttle both end up suspended in an infinite dance of death. I think. [QUOTE=Pushkin] I wondered, if the stinger missile is seeking the hot exhaust, it would approach from behind wouldn’t it? In that case, would it have a chance of getting close without being deflected by the exhaust gases? [/QUOTE] From the same link I posted above: > [@](#): > > In the immediate vicinity of the target, the guidance logic will be biased so that the missile homes on a particularly vulnerable part of the target (e.g. the cockpit of an aircraft, instead of the center of its IR signature, the jet exhaust). I’m not saying that this would be effective on the shuttle, but the stinger does seem to have some degree of sophistication about these things. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/19 "2008-02-07T10:00:43Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] I’m so totally not going to dig for a cite on this, even though I know that the topic’s been asked and aswered here, but within a couple of miles of a shuttle launch, the sound pressure’s so great that it’d literally would turn your innards to jelly. (The Saturn V was even worse.) [/QUOTE] I was privileged enough to watch the last ever Saturn V take off (Skylab), and I believe the exclusion zone was three miles. I was only a kid, but I still recall it as the loudest thing I have ever heard - spontaneous clapping my hands to my ears, the ground shaking, and feeling my chest and internal organs rumbling. All these answers are neglecting that a Stinger could take the shuttle out as it lands. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640/20 "2008-02-07T10:28:04Z")
[QUOTE=puppygod] 2. You’d have to launch Stinger in very narrow time window. If you wait few seconds too long, the shuttle will be too far and too fast. Not to mention, that by that time you would be scorched to death or at least knocked senseless by take-off blast. [/quote] This is exaggerated. The Stinger is doing Mach 2.2 within 2 seconds of launch and has a ceiling of 3800m (12500ft) and anything up to 8000m (26000ft) range in current versions. From say 3000m away, the stinger will take about 6 seconds to reach the shuttle on the pad, slightly longer as the shuttle rises, but even 25 seconds after launch it has only risen to about 1.3 miles (what’s that add, another couple of seconds to the stinger’s flight time?). You could fire anytime from liftoff to about T+ maybe 15 seconds and still make it, roughly. That is not exactly split second timing. > [@](#): > > b. will fly in a trajectory that avoid back blast from shuttle engines (almost impossible) How so? The stinger would approach from the side, and per my other post it has systems that offset to ensure it hits vulnerable parts. It’s doing frickin mach 2.2. It’s proximity fused and has an effective killing range of 200m. > [@](#): > > c. proximity fuse work correctly despite highly unusal conditions (unlikely) Why? And bear in mind it’s a fragmentation device. It will send shrapnel through an unarmoured bigass couldn’t miss it fuel tank, and probably through the boosters (we all know what happens when they leak, right?), not to mention the delicate upper surfaces of the shuttle itself if you get lucky. I don’t doubt the whole exercise would be highly impractical and probably suicidal, but don’t exaggerate the problems. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-take-out-the-space-shuttle-with-a-stinger/436640.md?page=2)