# Could you train an ape or monkey to use firearms? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 1, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948 "2009-02-01T02:39:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/21 "2009-02-01T18:50:22Z")
> [@puppygod](#): > > I seem to recall, that chimpanzees are much worse than us at precise hand movement. They can’t, for example, thread a needle. I think that also means that they literally can’t aim precisely. Could this be related to their lack of an opposing thumb? ---
**Author:** ![Erasmus\_Darwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@Erasmus\_Darwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erasmus_Darwin)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/22 "2009-02-01T19:04:45Z")
Too many accidents. When I’m going over gun safety with someone for the first time, I tend to point out that it’s all common sense but that the stakes are too high to pick it up via trial and error. In the case of a chimp, there’s no way to preemptively say, “No, pointing the barrel at your face is bad.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/23 "2009-02-01T19:12:17Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Could this be related to their lack of an opposing thumb? They have an opposable thumb; what they lack is a human’s “precision grip,” that is, the ability to bring the index finger and thumb together in such a way to dexterously manipulate things. ---
**Author:** ![puppygod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@puppygod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puppygod)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/24 "2009-02-01T19:21:32Z")
> [@Erasmus\_Darwin](#): > > Too many accidents. When I’m going over gun safety with someone for the first time, I tend to point out that it’s all common sense but that the stakes are too high to pick it up via trial and error. In the case of a chimp, there’s no way to preemptively say, “No, pointing the barrel at your face is bad.” I was thinking about using rubber bullets to let them learn safety rules, ahem, firsthand. [QUOTE=constanze] Could this be related to their lack of an opposing thumb? [/QUOTE] What \*\*Colibri \*\*said. My WAG would be rather that it stems from differences in motor cortex. And possibly, to some degree, in skeletal muscles. Now, when it come to acrobatics, then monkeys sure has it in spades. On second thought, maybe instead of firearms we should equip them [with swords](http://eatliver.com/i.php?n=2084). ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/25 "2009-02-01T19:25:21Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > You would be able to see if you gave the ape a squirt gun or a Nerf gun or something. > > That would be interesting to put some apes and show them how to use a Nerf gun and see what they use the gun for? Teach them to play paintball. I’d watch that. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/26 "2009-02-01T20:05:43Z")
I bet the R&D boys at Trunk Monkey are working on it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/27 "2009-02-01T20:20:42Z")
> [@](#): > > In the case of a chimp, there’s no way to preemptively say, “No, pointing the barrel at your face is bad.” Sure there is: You start them with prop or toy guns which can’t project anything dangerous out of them, but which still have the same appearance and weight as real ones. When the chimp points the toy gun at his head, you negatively reinforce him, and when he points it at a legitimate target, you positively reinforce him. Once he’s got that down, you switch to something that projects something harmless (a low-velocity paintball marker, say), and then to something which is still harmless but produces a loud bang to make sure that doesn’t panic them. Only after Mr. Panzee has demonstrated consistent safe practice with the deweaponized guns do you give him the real deal. ---
**Author:** ![Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9adbd/32.png) [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fell_through_the_Ice)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/28 "2009-02-01T20:47:04Z")
What I’m wondering is if the ape or monkey would be able to understand that he can kill things with it. And if he did understand this, would he kill for fun or sport? ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/29 "2009-02-01T20:57:42Z")
> [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](#): > > What I’m wondering is if the ape or monkey would be able to understand that he can kill things with it. > > And if he did understand this, would he kill for fun or sport? I got 5 bucks on yes ---
**Author:** ![mmmiiikkkeee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mmmiiikkkeee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmiiikkkeee)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/30 "2009-02-01T21:42:29Z")
Most apes ought to be able to physically load, disassemble, point, and shoot a gun. Convincing them to do it rather than just chuck the whole gun across the room or randmly pulling the trigger just to make a “BANG” and scare all the other apes would be another story. While they don’t have the dexterity to do caligraphy, they could certainly accomplish the relatively simple motions involved in firearm use. Chimps “thread” long stems of grass in and out of termite burrows all the time, slipping a bullet into a barrel or chamber would be pretty easy. They’d probably be clumsy at it and drop a lot of ammunition, but they’d get through it. Apes can disassemble pretty much anything with moving parts, clumsily, again. Given the right motivation they could eventually reassemble the gun too. A gorilla can even take pictures with an SLR camera (you may remember [this](http://www.koko.org/news/Events/event_051018_ASME_Award/images/Koko_photo_NG78_cover.jpg) National Geographic magazine cover). Pointing/aiming would be the easiest part; there’s no reason an ape couldn’t point a gun at a target and hold it on site. It’s quite impractical, but physically an ape should be capable of using a gun. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/31 "2009-02-01T21:55:21Z")
And what would we need a primate or monkey army for, again? Are recruitment figures _that_ bad? ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/32 "2009-02-01T21:59:56Z")
The anatomy of an ape’s hand is similar, but also different to ours. [http://www.sciencephotogallery.com/pictures\_1064939/human-and-bonobo-ape-hands.html](http://www.sciencephotogallery.com/pictures_1064939/human-and-bonobo-ape-hands.html) [http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/course/zo150/mozley/fall/hands.jpg](http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/course/zo150/mozley/fall/hands.jpg) You might want to redesign the grip and trigger mechanism to accomodate their longer palms and shorter thumbs. ---
**Author:** ![Dan\_Norder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4af34b/32.png) [@Dan\_Norder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dan_Norder)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/33 "2009-02-03T20:53:03Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I suspect it can: if you can teach chimpanzees and gorillas sign language, why not this? It should be noted that there is debate about whether those animals have, in fact, learned sign language to any meaningful extent or if they just mimic some hand gestures they’ve been taught with the trainers filling in the rest of the meanings themselves much like what happened with Clever Hans. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/34 "2009-02-03T21:02:17Z")
> [@puppygod](#): > > I was thinking about using rubber bullets to let them learn safety rules, ahem, firsthand. Rubber bullets at point-blank range are no joke. As far as teaching chimps to shoot firearms, why go to the trouble? It’s not like we’re lacking in humans ready, willing and able to shoot other humans. Besides, I don’t want my descendants hunted by apes with rifles on horseback. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/35 "2009-02-03T21:08:31Z")
Just don’t [cheat at cards](http://www.tsrocks.com/c/coasters_texts/run_red_run.html) with your armed monkey. ---
**Author:** ![Nickrz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbce88/32.png) [@Nickrz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nickrz)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/36 "2009-02-03T22:33:26Z")
Dammit! I blew the whole afternoon watching Eddie Izzard videos on YouTube. ---
**Author:** ![kitemaker\_chuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a88e4f/32.png) [@kitemaker\_chuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitemaker_chuck)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/37 "2009-02-03T22:44:05Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Saw some [Formosan Rock Monkeys](http://www.taiwan.com.au/Envtra/Protection/Ethic/01.html) yesterday: dexterious little buggers. Which naturally got me thinking: could you train one to use a gun reliably? What about a chimpanzee or other ape? They might learn how to fire an ape-k 47! ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/38 "2009-02-03T23:05:42Z")
> [@puppygod](#): > > I seem to recall, that chimpanzees are much worse than us at precise hand movement. They can’t, for example, thread a needle. I think that also means that they literally can’t aim precisely. Even if they could understand how to use sights to aim, they couldn’t keep them on target. Hmmm … I wonder if this explains where the Empire gets all those stormtroopers. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948/39 "2009-02-04T05:47:03Z")
> [@Nickrz](#): > > Dammit! I blew the whole afternoon watching Eddie Izzard videos on YouTube. My work here is finished 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-you-train-an-ape-or-monkey-to-use-firearms/483948.md?page=1)