# Couldn't ballistic missile subs have been easily tracked? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 10, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761 "2012-06-10T22:49:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/21 "2012-06-11T17:36:47Z")
For a good read on US submarine espionage and tracking of Soviet subs, read, “Blind’s Man Bluff”. US attack subs would trail the Soviet subs throughout their patrol. Soviet subs were very fast but noisy. The ballistic missile subs (Soviet) would go out with a surface escort actively pinging for US subs to keep them from closely tracking the missile sub. The Soviet “boomer” would then drop off on station under or near the Artic ice cap and just sit there awaiting orders. Without motion - vary had to detect. According to the book, the US attack sub sonar operators would look for a “hole in the ocean” where there were no sealife sounds and that was the boomer’s location. Sealife would avoid the unnatural submarine. If the Soviet sub received launch orders, it would move closer to the surface and this movement (along with other intelligence) would trigger the US attack sub to torpedo the Soviet sub. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/22 "2012-06-11T18:50:40Z")
Thank you for all the information on what the tactics are. What is the range of active sonar? ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/23 "2012-06-11T18:59:13Z")
Paging **Robby** to GQ IIRC he used to work on an attack boat that would perfom just the type of task the OP is asking about ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/24 "2012-06-11T19:08:18Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > And there really isn’t anything to prevent the US from stationing boomers in the Great Lakes where they are not subject to being followed with ships. Except they are too big to traverse the Great Lakes [locks and channels](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Lawrence_Seaway). ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/25 "2012-06-11T19:20:05Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > Paging **Robby** to GQ > > IIRC he used to work on an attack boat that would perfom just the type of task the OP is asking about I also served on a ballistic missile submarine. Nevertheless, I can’t really comment on the questions raised in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/26 "2012-06-11T19:28:47Z")
For security reasons or because my idea is utterly retarded? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/27 "2012-06-11T19:42:06Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > But it isn’t easy to track a sub 1000 feet down moving slowly or not at all. The OP mentioned active sonar, dialed up to 11. I think it would be easy-peasy to find a boomer with active sonar from 1000 feet. Rick mentioned that it wouldn’t be easy to get that initial lock, because of the 12-mile restriction on getting near the port. However, once a sub was found, I’m with the OP in not really understanding why a Soviet destroyer wouldn’t just follow it around the ocean, tracking it with active sonar. Why go to all the trouble of having secret attack subs? ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/28 "2012-06-11T19:43:38Z")
> [@Confused dart cum](#): > > For security reasons or because my idea is utterly retarded? Because the topic being discussed involves classified information. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/29 "2012-06-11T19:48:20Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Because the topic being discussed involves classified information. Oh come on…of course you know classified information, but surely there are some _unclassified_ aspects that you can discuss. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/30 "2012-06-11T20:09:48Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > The OP mentioned active sonar, dialed up to 11. I think it would be easy-peasy to find a boomer with active sonar from 1000 feet. Rick mentioned that it wouldn’t be easy to get that initial lock, because of the 12-mile restriction on getting near the port. > > However, once a sub was found, I’m with the OP in not really understanding why a Soviet destroyer wouldn’t just follow it around the ocean, tracking it with active sonar. Why go to all the trouble of having secret attack subs? The Soviets had few destroyers. They would rapidly run out of fuel (US subs have years of nuclear fuel aboard). The subs were faster the destroyers. Even with active sonar, it’s still possible to avoid/break detection (temperature/density stratification of water, go under an icepack, pass through a controled waterway, lose them in a surface storm, etc…). Have your fleet chase the destroyer away. Spoof or spoil the sonar signal with decoys. And other ways. ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/31 "2012-06-11T20:11:36Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > The OP mentioned active sonar, dialed up to 11. The issue is not dialing your sonar up to 11. Although there are limits as to how much power you can effectively put in the water. The real issue is the speed of sound in the water. You can’t make it go any faster. An active sonar works by sending out a ping and then waiting for that ping to return to the receiver. The further your target, the slower the ping rate. The slower the ping rate, the further behind your course corrections to follow the target and the further away you become. It’s a vicious cycle. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/32 "2012-06-11T20:13:30Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Oh come on…of course you know classified information, but surely there are some _unclassified_ aspects that you can discuss. Some of those pieces of paper the gubment makes you sign are kinda scary. Heck, if I was former submariner (or the like) I’d be hestitant to say more than I served, what we ate, and which crew member farted the most (using an alias of course). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/33 "2012-06-11T20:22:11Z")
> [@anson2995](#): > > Don’t think this is this still in effect. The US operated [aircraft carriers in the Great Lakes](http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-6i.htm) during World War II. One of the major military shipbuilders is located in Wisconsin and [launches ships into Lake Michigan](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu1jAsJy41U). > > Do any ships operate out of the Great Lakes Naval Station? No, it’s still in force. However, it’s always open to the parties to agree to modifications or interpretations of the treaty. During the War, the Canadian and US governments agreed to allow armed vessels on the Lakes for the duration. See: [Canada Treaty Information: Rush-Bagot Treaty.](http://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/result-resultat.aspx?type=1) ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/34 "2012-06-11T20:29:05Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Some of those pieces of paper the gubment makes you sign are kinda scary. Heck, if I was former submariner (or the like) I’d be hestitant to say more than I served, what we ate, and which crew member farted the most (using an alias of course). Then allow me to direct any interested parties to Tom Clancy’s [Submarine](http://www.amazon.com/Submarine-Tom-Clancys-Military-Reference/dp/0425190013). I haven’t read it for a while, but I remember it being very detailed. Might pull it off the shelf\* and read it again. - Where it is positioned directly below Clancy’s Marine. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/35 "2012-06-11T20:37:14Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > For a good read on US submarine espionage and tracking of Soviet subs, read, “Blind’s Man Bluff”. > > . . . Excellent book. Read it and you’ll have a whole new respect for those who serve on subs. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/36 "2012-06-11T23:58:11Z")
Blind Man’s Bluff is another great book about modern subs. At the time it came out I was working with a former bubblehead that served on the Baton Rouge. When I got to the part in the book where they describe the accident between the BR and the Russian sub I did a little math and realized that my coworker was onboard. The next day the conversation went like this: Me: you were driving that day wern’t you Him: what? Me: you were driving that day wern’t you? Him: what? Me: the sub you were driving that day (look of comprehension hits his face) Him: No it wasn’t me, I swear I was in line for chow. Me: suuuure you were. 🙂 Anyway he borrowed the book read it and came back amazed at how detailed it was and how nobody got in trouble for telling these stories. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/37 "2012-06-12T00:05:30Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Me: the sub you were driving that day > (look of comprehension hits his face) > Him: No it wasn’t me, I swear I was in line for chow. > Me: suuuure you were. 🙂 Well of course. How do think that collision happened in the first place? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/38 "2012-06-12T00:22:49Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Treaties!? Just ask the Native Americans how that goes. > > On a serious note, I agree that it does prohibit the use of the Great Lakes that way. And that is probably a good thing. Well, it’d be dumb anyway, because then people would have a much, much better idea of where the sub was. While you can hide them once they’re under the high seas, it’s hard to keep their construction and launch a secret - indeed, they don’t even try to, it’s a big event - and so if you launched a boomer into Lake Superior everyone would have a pretty good idea where it was. Superior looks pretty big if you try to swim across it but it’s a blip compared to the ocean. I mean, at that point, why build a submarine at all? Just build a missile silo. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/39 "2012-06-12T00:28:48Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Well of course. How do think that collision happened in the first place? 🙂 Now that makes PERFECT sense. ---
**Author:** ![Batfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Batfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batfish)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761/40 "2012-06-12T00:31:31Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > …the US attack sub sonar operators would look for a “hole in the ocean” where there were no sealife sounds… That’s a load of hoooey. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couldnt-ballistic-missile-subs-have-been-easily-tracked/624761.md?page=3)