# Coulter at it again. My apologies to our Canadian friends. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 4, 2004, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007 "2004-12-04T02:17:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/261 "2004-12-09T22:08:59Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] Second, what is bigoted is for **Muffin** to say things like > [@](#): > > is a country driven by selfishness and hate Bigoted? Hardly. I provided long list of items to support my conclusion, and the best responses were no more than yes, but . . . . It comes down to the scope and degree of the items, and of the inescapable conclusions they lead to. Are all Americans selfish and hateful? Of course not. Not even close. Please do not misconstrue my assertion. Are some Americans selfish and hateful? Yes. Now, given the items set forth, what is driving the country? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/262 "2004-12-09T22:29:28Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Bigoted? Hardly. I provided long list of items to support my conclusion, and the best responses were no more than yes, but . . . . No, you fucking bigot. You provided a long list of actions by individuals and the US government which **did not prove your sweeping bigotry on the fundemental nature of American society**. And the best responses were “this is not indicitve of American society”. All of which you totally ignored and retreated into the logic that since Bush was re-elected, you can make sweeping bigoted generalizations. > [@Muffin](#): > > It comes down to the scope and degree of the items, and of the inescapable conclusions they lead to. Exactly, the scope and degree do not bear out your claim. And this is the Dope for goddess’ sake, you can’t just hop about and talk about “inescapable conclusions.” You actually have to prove things, or at least show why your interpreation is more likely than any other. You’ve failed to do that. > [@Muffin](#): > > Are all Americans selfish and hateful? Of course not. Not even close. Please do not misconstrue my assertion. Never claimed your bigotry went in that direction. Simply that your bigoted attitudes claim that America is “driven by” selfishness and hate. > [@Muffin](#): > > Are some Americans selfish and hateful? Yes. Are some Americans transvestite hookers addicted to crystal meth? Yes. Does this mean that American society is driven by transvestism, prostitution, and drug use? > [@Muffin](#): > > Now, given the items set forth, what is driving the country? Little happy pixies. :rolleyes: You too have shown not one single shred of sociological or statistical data, and your claims about the character of the entire nation are idiotic. You want to know what drives America? Same thing that drives the rest of the fucking world. Chaos. Various people believing, thinking, doing various things. Sometimes in cooperation, sometimes in conflict, sometimes along an ideological path, sometimes willy-nilly. America is no more a fungible entity than is Canada, or Europe, or any other aggregate of human beings. So if you want to speak to the driving forces behind the federal government, then at least we can cite names, people who make policy, etc… and if you were to argue that the government of the United states has often acted imporperly I will agree. If, however, you want to paint America as a nation “driven” by hate and selfishness, I’ll call you on your bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/263 "2004-12-09T23:36:34Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You too have shown not one single shred of sociological or statistical data, and your claims about the character of the entire nation are idiotic. You want to know what drives America? Same thing that drives the rest of the fucking world. > > Chaos. > > Various people believing, thinking, doing various things. Sometimes in cooperation, sometimes in conflict, sometimes along an ideological path, sometimes willy-nilly. Might I recommend an introductory Anthropology text? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/264 "2004-12-10T00:09:08Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You want to know what drives America? Same thing that drives the rest of the fucking world. > > Chaos The United States is a country driven by chaos? You do realize that now your are making the same type of generalization that you have been deriding me for? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/265 "2004-12-10T01:05:09Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > The United States is a country driven by chaos? > > You do realize that now your are making the same type of generalization that you have been deriding me for? Not at all. Chaos includes variables. Chaos is not a bad thing, it’s the natural state of the world. It is only through an imposition of imaginary order that we smooth things out. America is driven by its citizens, who often have conflicting desires and views. Thus, chaos. You, however, are still a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/266 "2004-12-10T01:06:48Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Might I recommend an introductory Anthropology text? Sure, but as I’ve already studied anth and sociology I’m not sure exactly what you hope to get at. In other words, do you have a point, or a quip? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/267 "2004-12-10T01:29:46Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > You do realize that now your are making the same type of generalization that you have been deriding me for? To elaborate further: you state the bigoted position that America is ‘driven’ by certain negative ideologies. You provide no proof for America as a whole being driven by anything, only anecdotal evidence of certain Americans and government officials doing certain things. Chaos, (you can use the word ‘variation’ if you prefer), on the other hand, suggests that there are multiple view points and multiple ‘drives’. That is, while you attempt to make America a fungible mass, I recognize that it is made up of people who feel different ways about different issues. Or, more to the point, I see variation, you see homogeneity. Our generalizations are diametrically opposed. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/268 "2004-12-10T01:35:00Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Not at all. > > Chaos includes variables. Chaos is not a bad thing, it’s the natural state of the world. It is only through an imposition of imaginary order that we smooth things out. > > America is driven by its citizens, who often have conflicting desires and views. Thus, chaos. > > You, however, are still a bigot. Cute theory, but I assure you that the decisions and action that governments take are not imaginary. They have very real effects. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/269 "2004-12-10T01:39:42Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Our generalizations are diametrically opposed. So you too are a bigot according to your own standards. That’s rich. The more you go on, the more you talk yourself into a corner. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/270 "2004-12-10T01:41:43Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Cute theory, but I assure you that the decisions and action that governments take are not imaginary. They have very real effects. Did I ever claim that the government or its influences were imaginary? On the other hand, is your bigoted bullshit based on a fallacious assumption that the actions of the US government somehow speak to the ‘driving forces’ in ‘American consciousness’? As I have said before, if you wish to ammend your statement to read “The actions of the United Sttes Government have often been selfish and hostile to the global community.” Well, then I’d certainly agree. But this bigoted bullshit about how the actions of the government speak to what ‘drives’ America… it’s just rank stupidity. > [@Muffin](#): > > So you too are a bigot according to your own standards. That’s rich. The more you go on, the more you talk yourself into a corner. No. I state that Americans have differing views. That’s not being bigoted, it’s the truth. People aren’t fungible. You state that Americans somehow have a ‘driving’ force of selfishness and hate. That is bigoted. Idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/271 "2004-12-10T01:53:08Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You state that Americans somehow have a ‘driving’ force of selfishness and hate. > That is bigoted. > Idiot. Cite please. Please show where I have stated that Americans have a dirving force of selfishness and hate. You can’t, for I have not made any such statement. What I stated was “It is a country driven by selfishness and hate . . . .” That you construe this to mean that Americans have a driving force of selfishness and hate is absurd. You are very quick at spewing little balls of deficate derision, but you really should give a bit more thought before you post. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/272 "2004-12-10T01:56:21Z")
I have no dog in this fight. God I love using that term…🙂 But chaos is not the natural state of things. Everything that happens has a reason. You may not agree with the reason. But it has one. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/273 "2004-12-10T02:04:44Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Cite please. Please show where I have stated that Americans have a dirving force of selfishness and hate. You can’t, for I have not made any such statement. [“When I think of developed countries, the USA is low on the list, despite its being by far the most economically and militarily powerful nation in the world. It is a country driven by selfishness and hate, of which milroyj and coulter are just examples.”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5579489&postcount=197) You are trying to back away from the obvious implications of your statement, much like many bigoted cowards. You say the country is driven by selfishness and hate, and that people, like **Mil** and Coulter, are examples. Are you honestly going claim that you did not directly imply that there are people who embody or are “examples” of this 'driving force?" Even if you are not, by what mechanism exactly do you propose that this ‘driving force’ exists and is expressed? America is made up of people who hold ideas. Who, exactly, are you claiming holds and acts on these ideas if not Americans? > [@Muffin](#): > > What I stated was “It is a country driven by selfishness and hate . . . .” That you construe this to mean that Americans have a driving force of selfishness and hate is absurd. Moronic bigot. What the hell should anybody take it to mean? America, which is made up of Americans, is driven by twin ideologies of selfishness nd hate… but this ‘driving force’ occurs in Magick Land, and does not actually involve any real people? You’re full of shit and a coward to boot. Take responisibility for being a bigot, don’t try to pretend that these ‘driving forces’ exist in Magick Land and do not involve flesh and blood Americans. > [@Muffin](#): > > You are very quick at spewing little balls of deficate derision, but you really should give a bit more thought before you post. And you should have the courage to take responsibility for your own bigotry. Coward. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/274 "2004-12-10T02:09:09Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > But chaos is not the natural state of things. > Everything that happens has a reason. You may not agree with the reason. > But it has one. Of course I’d agree to that. I do not believe that chaos invalidates reasons. I also pointed out that perhaps ‘variation’ would be a better word than chaos. I am simply trying to point out that there is not one-single-reason-and-belief behind America’s actions or representative paradigms. So, instead of chaos, maybe we can use the words ‘conflict’, ‘variation’, etc…? For instance, there is conflict over the role of church and state. That does not mean that America is driven by an unabashed support for theocracy. Rather, there is conflict, variation. And if anything, America is informed by the conflict between opposing views, not homogeniety and hegemony. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/275 "2004-12-10T02:14:44Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Did I ever claim that the government or its influences were imaginary? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > It is only through an imposition of imaginary order that we smooth things out. You mean to say that the decisions and actions of governments are not imaginary, but the order that results is imaginary? Curiouser and Curiouser, said Alice. Whether you believe it or not, governments through their decisions and actions really do impose order much of the time, and the order is not imaginary. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/276 "2004-12-10T02:30:54Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > You mean to say that the decisions and actions of governments are not imaginary, but the order that results is imaginary? No, I mean to point out that you have quoted me out of context in two different posts in an attempt to debate against a position that I do not hold. In other words: nice strawman. To clarify (again): The government and its influences are very real. One-single-ideology-drive-worldview-paradigm of America or Americans (however you want to semantically mince it) is imaginary. > [@Muffin](#): > > Curiouser and Curiouser, said Alice. Whether you believe it or not, governments through their decisions and actions really do impose order much of the time, and the order is not imaginary. :rolleyes: :smack: :rolleyes: The record of our ‘debate’ is already in this thread. You bore me. I’m done with you. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/277 "2004-12-10T02:31:29Z")
So if I said that “America is a country driven by selfishness and hate of which the funding of Osama bin Laden and the Contras are merely examples”- I’m in the clear bigotry-wise right? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/278 "2004-12-10T02:43:03Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Or, more to the point, I see variation, you see homogeneity. No. Please go back and read what I wrote (bolding added): > [@Muffin](#): > > I don’t doubt that **there are people such as** milroyj who do not think of other nations. I don’t doubt that **there are people who** share coulter’s views. Aside from the remarkable celebration of ignorance by **such people** , I am very concerned that **they are gaining greater and greater political power**. > > . . . . > > It is a country driven by selfishness and hate, **of which milroyj and coulter are just examples**. > > I sincerely hope that the USA gets back on track, for **there are a great many fine Americans that do not deserve to be dragged down by the likes of milroyj and coulter**. So please do not spout on so about my perceiving Americans as homogeneous. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > You are trying to back away from the obvious implications of your statement, much like many bigoted cowards. You say the country is driven by selfishness and hate, and that people, like **Mil** and Coulter, are examples. Are you honestly going claim that you did not directly imply that there are people who embody or are “examples” of this 'driving force?" Reading comprehension 101. Yes, there are people who are selfish and yes there are people who are hateful. And just to make it very clear, I am of the opinion that such people appear to have been gaining power in the USA, as evidenced by the direction its government through its decisions and actions has taken on the issues which I set out. That you have taken this very simple position to mean that American individuals should be taken as a whole to be selfish and hateful is unfortunate, and that you continue to spew your vindictive based on your misapprehension is unseemly. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/279 "2004-12-10T02:50:39Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So if I said that “America is a country driven by selfishness and hate of which the funding of Osama bin Laden and the Contras are merely examples”- I’m in the clear bigotry-wise right? > > 🙂 Darned if I know, my being and idiot et al. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007/280 "2004-12-10T04:24:01Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So if I said that “America is a country driven by selfishness and hate of which the funding of Osama bin Laden and the Contras are merely examples”- I’m in the clear bigotry-wise right? > > 🙂 Nope. If you said “The American federal government’s policies seem to be driven by selfishness and hate, of which etc, etc, etc…” That would be cool. It would be even more accurate and specific to discuss individual administrations and their actual actions on the geo-political and domestic fronts. You have to remember that we live in a republic, not a democracy. And in a two party system, you’re often faced with equally shitty choices of leaders. That’s why Americans so often talk about “the lesser of two evils.” in political horseraces. To assume that America, as a country, is driven by the actions of its government is to ignore the tangible reality of 300,000,000 individual human beings who are in the process of participating in, and helping to shape the future evolution of, our society. Think about the oversimplification and myopia required to say that a nation,a group of three hundred milliion people, was _driven_ by any one, or two , or three ideologies? In addition, you are attempting to ‘divine’ the motive and drive of at least a sizeable portion of that three hundred milliion human beings. If you were a supremely talented psychiatrist that would still be rather difficult with that population. Now imagine that this population of three hundred million was composed of people from virtually every nation on earth, that it did not have one culture, one aesthetic, one political view, one economic view, one religious view, one social view, one global view, one moral view… Imagine that instead of one view being represented in this sample population of three hundred million, there were five views. Or ten. Or five hundred. How accurate would any generalizations be about the fundemental ‘essence’ of this population? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coulter-at-it-again-my-apologies-to-our-canadian-friends/278007.md?page=15)