# Council for German Orthography intends to make idiots out of Germans, tells them where they can stick it (the possessive apostrophe) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 15, 2024, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/council-for-german-orthography-intends-to-make-idiots-out-of-germans-tells-them-where-they-can-stick-it-the-possessive-apostrophe/1008822 "2024-10-15T05:07:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Xocomil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xocomil/32/14927_2.png) [@Xocomil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xocomil)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2024, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/council-for-german-orthography-intends-to-make-idiots-out-of-germans-tells-them-where-they-can-stick-it-the-possessive-apostrophe/1008822/1 "2024-10-15T05:07:16Z")
Traditionally German doesn’t use an apostrophe when the possessive form of a word is indicated with an _s_. Its use is derided with the apellation Deppenapostroph, idiot’s apostrophe. One place it’s seen widespread use, since the '90s, is in the names of public establishments: bars, restaurants, shop, etc. Now the Council for German Orthography has decided that students in German schools will learn that the use of possessive apostrophes in proper names is totally kosher. Only in proper names, however. > **[Germans decry influence of English as ‘idiot’s apostrophe’ gets official...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/07/germany-influence-of-english-idiots-apostrophe)** > > Linguistic body has relaxed rules on use of apostrophe to show possession, not traditionally correct in German Eva’s Blumenladen (Eva’s Flower Shop) is fine, Eva’s Brille (Eva’s glasses) is still a no-no. Unless Eva’s Brille is the name of Eva’s (or is that Evas?) glasses shop, I guess. I remember that when Spanish Royal Academy announced a few spelling reforms some years ago, most prominently the removal of the digraphs _ch_ and _ll_ from the Spanish alphabet, it was a topic of conversation accross the Spanish-speaking world. For German-speaking Dopers, how’s this going over where you are? Has the sky fallen yet? Riots in the streets? Dogs and cats living together? Will it end up in Federal court like the last German spelling reform? > **[German orthography reform of 1996](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_orthography_reform_of_1996)** > > The German orthography reform of 1996 (Reform der deutschen Rechtschreibung von 1996) was a change to German spelling and punctuation that was intended to simplify German orthography and thus to make it easier to learn, without substantially changing the rules familiar to users of the language. > The reform was based on an international agreement signed in Vienna in July 1996 by the governments of the German-speaking countries—Germany, Austria, Liechtenstein and Switzerland. Luxembourg did not ... ---
**Author:** ![kk\_fusion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kk_fusion/32/15276_2.png) [@kk\_fusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kk_fusion)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2024, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/council-for-german-orthography-intends-to-make-idiots-out-of-germans-tells-them-where-they-can-stick-it-the-possessive-apostrophe/1008822/2 "2024-10-15T05:59:29Z")
The issue seems to be that, while part of standard German, the genitive doesn’t really seem natural to many native speakers. In informal spech, most wouldn’t say _Evas Brille_ but rather use a dative construction like _Brille von (der) Eva_ or _Eva ihre Brille_. Therefore an actual marked genitive is seen as either overly formal, or, in the case of small local business names, as a loan from English, and that’s how the apostrophe slips in. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2024, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/council-for-german-orthography-intends-to-make-idiots-out-of-germans-tells-them-where-they-can-stick-it-the-possessive-apostrophe/1008822/3 "2024-10-15T06:09:44Z")
I don’t really have any observation on the specific question asked here, but I find the question quite interesting and will be following the discussion. I will simply note, from my perspective as an American who transplanted to Europe many years ago, that there is _a lot_ of English leaking into everyday usage. The amount varies from country to country, but it’s not uncommon to see, for example, a branded panel van for delivery of foodstuffs, with business and contact information in the local language, but a smiling model with a word bubble containing the words “So good!” in English; or a storefront with opening hours and other descriptive information on the door and window in the local language, but the business name itself reflects an English influence, including the words “video games” or such. And if you inquire about this, it’s not hard to find people who are irritated by the drift. Many people are practical-minded, just sort of accepting the evolution, but many are not. As a first-language English speaker, effectively a representative of the language, I have learned to be careful and respectful about people’s preferences on the matter. So I’ll be curious to see what happens with the orthographic ruling. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2024, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/council-for-german-orthography-intends-to-make-idiots-out-of-germans-tells-them-where-they-can-stick-it-the-possessive-apostrophe/1008822/4 "2024-10-15T10:14:54Z")
> [@Xocomil](#): > > For German-speaking Dopers, how’s this going over where you are? Has the sky fallen yet? Riots in the streets? Dogs and cats living together? Will it end up in Federal court like the last German spelling reform? For me and most other people, I assume, it’s no big deal. I still sometimes cringe when I see a sign like “Willi’s Frittenbude”, but that’s a battle already lost at least 30 years ago and is so common that formalizing the so-called Deppenapostroph makes sense. Also, I read a lot of classic literature from the 18th, 19th and early 20th century and often have encountered the genitive construction with an apostrophe in those texts, not only for proper names but in general use like the example in the OP, “Eva’s Brille”. So it has a long tradition and really isn’t a new development due to English influence. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2024, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/council-for-german-orthography-intends-to-make-idiots-out-of-germans-tells-them-where-they-can-stick-it-the-possessive-apostrophe/1008822/5 "2024-10-15T11:38:54Z")
I didn’t realize this was a problem that needed fixing, or even that there was an organization in Germany responsible for fixing it. Does this same kind of stuff happen with American and British English and I’m just not aware of it? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2024, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/council-for-german-orthography-intends-to-make-idiots-out-of-germans-tells-them-where-they-can-stick-it-the-possessive-apostrophe/1008822/6 "2024-10-15T11:48:45Z")
What does it mean when you see an apostrophe as in “die Luther’sche Reformation”? Is that a (relative) innovation? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2024, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/council-for-german-orthography-intends-to-make-idiots-out-of-germans-tells-them-where-they-can-stick-it-the-possessive-apostrophe/1008822/7 "2024-10-15T11:51:17Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Does this same kind of stuff happen with American and British English and I’m just not aware of it? Of course! Most infamous being the _greengrocers’ apostrophe_ ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2024, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/council-for-german-orthography-intends-to-make-idiots-out-of-germans-tells-them-where-they-can-stick-it-the-possessive-apostrophe/1008822/8 "2024-10-15T11:54:22Z")
Some languages have official supervision, for lack of a better description. In my own country of residence, for example, Luxembourgish was only relatively recently recognized as a full-fledged language, so orthographic redefinition has been, understandably, **[pretty active](https://today.rtl.lu/news/luxembourg/a/1424788.html)**, as we distinguish ourselves from our linguistic cousins. To the best of my knowledge, no such equivalent authority exists for English, outside the wishes of various prescriptivist academics. English evolves, and expert observers simply document that evolution. In other words, these changes do occur, but organically, and they either catch on and become an accepted part of the language, or they fade away. There’s no rulemaker that says yes or no to the changes. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2024, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/council-for-german-orthography-intends-to-make-idiots-out-of-germans-tells-them-where-they-can-stick-it-the-possessive-apostrophe/1008822/9 "2024-10-15T11:59:09Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > What does it mean when you see an apostrophe as in “die Luther’sche Reformation”? Is that a (relative) innovation? I really don’t know, that’s a very special case I haven’t seen in any other word/construction than this. But I have a guess that this has other reasons, because you also see the word “lutherisch” (Lutheran), so “luther’sch(e)” seems to be an abbreviation that omits the letter ‘i’ and so rightfully puts in an apostrophe to indicate that omission. ---
**Author:** ![kk\_fusion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kk_fusion/32/15276_2.png) [@kk\_fusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kk_fusion)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2024, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/council-for-german-orthography-intends-to-make-idiots-out-of-germans-tells-them-where-they-can-stick-it-the-possessive-apostrophe/1008822/10 "2024-10-15T12:18:51Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > I really don’t know, that’s a very special case I haven’t seen in any other word/construction than this. It’s pretty common in science, e. g. _Halleyscher Komet_, _Kirchhoffsches Gesetz_, _Plancksche Einheiten_. The official rules on this are needlessly convoluted, but if I interpret them correctly, the preferred spelling is still without the apostrophe. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2024, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/council-for-german-orthography-intends-to-make-idiots-out-of-germans-tells-them-where-they-can-stick-it-the-possessive-apostrophe/1008822/11 "2024-10-15T12:36:06Z")
> [@kk\_fusion](#): > > It’s pretty common in science, e. g. _Halleyscher Komet_, _Kirchhoffsches Gesetz_, _Plancksche Einheiten_. Right, I didn’t remember these examples, although as an EE I’m very familiar with the “Kirchhoffsche Gesetze” and “Plancksche Einheiten”. And you’re right that it’s uncommon to put in an apostrophe. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2024, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/council-for-german-orthography-intends-to-make-idiots-out-of-germans-tells-them-where-they-can-stick-it-the-possessive-apostrophe/1008822/12 "2024-10-15T12:49:16Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > To the best of my knowledge, no such equivalent authority exists for English, outside the wishes of various prescriptivist academics. English evolves, and expert observers simply document that evolution. In other words, these changes do occur, but organically, and they either catch on and become an accepted part of the language, or they fade away. There’s no rulemaker that says yes or no to the changes. The closest equivalent for Anglophones would be a major update to a widely used style guide, such as the Chicago Manual or the AP Stylebook. (A recent example: both changed their guidelines in 2020 to recommend capitalizing “Black” in the context of race.) ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/council-for-german-orthography-intends-to-make-idiots-out-of-germans-tells-them-where-they-can-stick-it-the-possessive-apostrophe/1008822/13 "2024-10-16T00:15:35Z")
The only thing I have to add to this is that I spent 6 months in Zurich in 1967 and ate at a restaurant called Kaiser’s Reblaube (I think it means Kaiser’s grape arbor), so it is not new. ---
**Author:** ![Xocomil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xocomil/32/14927_2.png) [@Xocomil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xocomil)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/council-for-german-orthography-intends-to-make-idiots-out-of-germans-tells-them-where-they-can-stick-it-the-possessive-apostrophe/1008822/14 "2024-10-16T02:34:10Z")
This more or less amounts to the same thing. They publish a style guide that’s used by schools and public bodies and have no more authority than that. Everyone else can do whatever der Fuss they want. It seems to me that the new ruling is just acknowledging a particular use that isn’t going anywhere nor is spreading. As Hari\_Seldon observed, this was happening as far back as the '60s and, as EinsteinsHund notes, even further back. > [@kk\_fusion](#): > > an actual marked genitive is seen as either overly formal, or, in the case of small local business names, as a loan from English This explains why there probably will be very little real resistence. There aren’t very many use cases.