# Countries where murder is not a crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 1, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002 "2003-02-01T00:36:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Civil\_Defense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Civil\_Defense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Defense)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/1 "2003-02-01T00:36:18Z")
I was watching a TLC special earlier and a thought crossed my mind idly… are there any countries in the world where murder is not a crime? Or at least not a huge crime? And if so, what prevents the psychos on TV from taking a trip there with their victim, killing them, then returning? ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/2 "2003-02-01T00:57:35Z")
Have you seen Afghanistan? A life is pretty cheap there. What prevents a murderer from using any nation that tolerates murder is the fact that a murderer can be murdered. Any nation with a weak government has a rampant murder rate. It may still be a crime but since the laws arent being strictly enforced, it dont matter that it is. Iraq is also a good example except there seems to be a law there that states that only the leader gets to do all the murdering. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/3 "2003-02-01T01:14:20Z")
I don’t know of any country where murder is legal, but I do remember a magazine article about South Africa and the closing of a legal loophole which allowed the owner of a land to kill anyone on their property (with some qualifications, such as they had to of gone there out of their own free will), apparently the (Afrikaaner) owner of certain piece of land had been using this law to kill a large number of people by luring them on to his land. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/4 "2003-02-01T01:26:00Z")
How about the U.S.? Yes, I’m serious though I know it’s not exactly what you meant. Ordinary homicide is not a federal crime and only prosecuted at the state level. If you kill the president or people in some specific groups it will be a federal crime but not if you kill Joe Ordinary. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/5 "2003-02-01T01:35:26Z")
According to [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com), murder means an illegal killing. Therefore, all murders are crimes. If the killing is legal, it is not murder. ---
**Author:** ![raisinbread](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8491ac/32.png) [@raisinbread](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raisinbread)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/6 "2003-02-01T01:35:58Z")
I’m sure in Texas and most Islamic countries murder is not a crime but require pesky conditionals which can be easily met in a court of law so it is no longer “murder”. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/7 "2003-02-01T02:15:38Z")
Do not feed the purple troll ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/8 "2003-02-01T02:22:09Z")
Whoops. I forgot about the “No trolling accusations” directive. Sorry :o As for Texas: Until recently, you could kill someone who was trying to take your property, and it was considered justified homicide. It was not necessary that this person threaten you or anyone else in any way. This loophole was closed after someone killed the guy who was trying to reposess his car, and a jury acquitted him because it was legal to use deadly force to defend your property. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/9 "2003-02-01T02:31:07Z")
Afganistan is in a state of civil war, so I don’t know if it’s fair to count them. Albania is said to be extremely anarchic these days; once you get ouside the capital the laws don’t mean much. ---
**Author:** ![raisinbread](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8491ac/32.png) [@raisinbread](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raisinbread)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/10 "2003-02-01T02:45:45Z")
Funny that you call me a troll then support my assertation with that mention of justifiable homicide in Texas. Of course there are the honor killings in Islam, which are extentions of old tribal laws, but other gems like their notorious tolerance of adultery. [http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl\_adul1.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_adul1.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/11 "2003-02-01T06:06:15Z")
I’m wagering you could get away without government prosecution of murder in Somalia, rural Afghanistan, and perhaps Albania (as previously referenced). In the early '90s, Albania really didn’t have any government, and people seemed to say ‘hello’ by carrying out highway robbery using crusty AK-47s. I’m sure there are more regions of the world where this applies, primarily in Africa. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/12 "2003-02-01T07:04:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diceman \* > Until recently, you could kill someone who was trying to take your property, and it was considered justified homicide. It was not necessary that this person threaten you or anyone else in any way. This loophole was closed after someone killed the guy who was trying to reposess his car, and a jury acquitted him because it was legal to use deadly force to defend your property. That doesn’t make much sense. If a person was reposessing his car, it was assuredly _not_ his property. Do you have a cite for this case? Also, it’s important to distinguish between murder and homicide. Homicide committed in self defense is not murder. Killing someone by accident is not murder (though it can be manslaughter or negligent homicide.) Execution is not murder, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/13 "2003-02-01T07:23:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Civil Defense \* > \*\*I was watching a TLC special earlier and a thought crossed my mind idly… are there any countries in the world where murder is not a crime? Or at least not a huge crime? And if so, what prevents the psychos on TV from taking a trip there with their victim, killing them, then returning? \*\* While not illegal, you can get away with murder in India if you’re powerful or famous. Prosecution’s witness often tend to have ‘accidents’ or don’t “recollect” anymore. Now, if you’re about to say the same happens everywhere. Maybe, but not likely to be with the same impunity. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/14 "2003-02-01T11:56:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by friedo \* > \*\*That doesn’t make much sense. If a person was reposessing his car, it was assuredly _not_ his property. Do you have a cite for this case? > > Also, it’s important to distinguish between murder and homicide. Homicide committed in self defense is not murder. Killing someone by accident is not murder (though it can be manslaughter or negligent homicide.) Execution is not murder, and so on. \*\* I remember this case. But IIRC, the guy wasn’t even arrested, let alone tried. Texas has, or had, some unusual definitions of justifiable homicide. I will look for a cite. ---
**Author:** ![cart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ec8ea/32.png) [@cart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cart)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/15 "2003-02-01T12:16:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Cermonies \* > **I don’t know of any country where murder is legal, but I do remember a magazine article about South Africa and the closing of a legal loophole which allowed the owner of a land to kill anyone on their property** In “Indecent Exposure” by Tom Sharpe, reference is made to the (supposed) fact that South African law (in the fifties, the time at which the book is set) had no penalty for a man who kills his unfaithful wife’s lover. I’ve no idea if this is true or not, the book is a fiction and a comedy at that. But it’s grounded in reality enough to suggest that it may well be the case. Perhaps an old South African can confirm or deny this. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/16 "2003-02-01T12:23:22Z")
Re: deadly force in texas: [From the Texas criminal code](http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/cgi-bin/cqcgi?CQ_SESSION_KEY=WNEPGMMFQGMR&CQ_QUERY_HANDLE=123996&CQ_CUR_DOCUMENT=2&CQ_TLO_DOC_TEXT=YES): > [@](#): > > 9.42. Deadly Force to Protect Property > > A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property: > > (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and > > (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary: > > (A) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or > > (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and > > (3) he reasonably believes that: > > (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or > > (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury. There’s a whole lot of wriggle room in this. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/17 "2003-02-01T13:21:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Civil Defense \* > \*\*And if so, what prevents the psychos on TV from taking a trip there with their victim, killing them, then returning? \*\* Psycho: Hey, do you want to visit a country where murder is legal? Schmoe: That’d be cool! I should try and persuade someone I’ve a grudge against to come with me. Say, Psycho, why aren’t you doing that? ---
**Author:** ![cart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ec8ea/32.png) [@cart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cart)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/18 "2003-02-01T13:56:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cart \* > \*\*In “Indecent Exposure” by Tom Sharpe, reference is made to the (supposed) fact that South African law (in the fifties, the time at which the book is set) had no penalty for a man who kills his unfaithful wife’s lover. > \*\* Sorry, I don’t know what I was thinking there. The book was first published in 1973 and doesn’t make specific mention of the date, so presumably it is set in the early seventies. ---
**Author:** ![tmwster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/57b2e6/32.png) [@tmwster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tmwster)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/19 "2003-02-01T14:04:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diceman \* > \*\*As for Texas: Until recently, you could kill someone who was trying to take your property, and it was considered justified homicide. It was not necessary that this person threaten you or anyone else in any way. This loophole was closed after someone killed the guy who was trying to reposess his car, and a jury acquitted him because it was legal to use deadly force to defend your property. \*\* I don’t remember this case, but I guess this must be an attitude holdover from the days when it was perfectly acceptable to hang a hoss thief. When I took the concealed carry class, I was told that it is legal to use deadly force to protect your moveable property _at night_, to protect your own person if you fear your life is endangered, and to protect yourself and your home if an intruder forces entry. But not legal to protect a third party who is in danger from an assailant. In other words, it’s okay to use deadly force if someone is stealing your car at night, but not okay to use deadly force to protect someone else who is being beaten to death. Very strange. ---
**Author:** ![raygirvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@raygirvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raygirvan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002/20 "2003-02-01T14:23:42Z")
There’s also the [crime of passion](http://web.ukonline.co.uk/ruth.buddell/chapter2.htm), which in some countries - notably France - is considered as a separate category of murder and generally treated leniently. And it’s a reasonably major human rights issue that many legal systems worldwide are lenient over [‘crimes of honour’](http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/bibliog/honour.html): that is men are more likely to receive lenient treatment than women for murdering an adulterous partner. Even in the UK, the defence of provocation (see this [Hansard report](http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199394/cmhansrd/1994-05-17/Debate-2.html)) is more available to men than women. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/countries-where-murder-is-not-a-crime/152002.md?page=2)