# county **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 13, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802 "2003-12-13T19:08:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/41 "2003-12-13T21:27:32Z")
The one thing I’ll say for **county** is that on the subject of the rights of children, he’s consistent; he doesn’t give a [Tinker](http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/tinker.html)’s damn for them. ---
**Author:** ![leenmi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f1d935/32.png) [@leenmi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leenmi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/42 "2003-12-13T21:36:15Z")
But County is right. Minors don’t have full rights. In fact, the law holds that, in some cases, their judgement can not be trusted and that there are certain decisions they are incapable of making. (Can’t enter into contracts and no concentual sex, for two examples). In the late 80s, the Supreme Court ruled to curtail the freedom of speech afforded students (Hazelwood case, 1988, [example cite](http://www.ericfacility.net/databases/ERIC_Digests/ed321253.html) ) Minors don’t have full rights and privileges. This does not mean they are property or lacking in Human Rights, but they certainly don’t get the full rights afforded to adults. Corporal punishment in school is wrong, though. I believe children have a right not to be beaten for acting up in class. ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/43 "2003-12-13T21:47:45Z")
**Ilsa\_Lund** , I pretty much agre with your position in the linked thread about school uniforms, but you’re acting like a total asshole here. Go back and reread that thread. Here’s how it goes: **county** states his position. You come back with a stream of abuse at him, never once actually mentioning his points. **county** answers in calm and reasoned words. You come back with something like this: “Your stupidity is matched only by your astounding inability to hide it. Pictures of your ability for rational thought can be found on the back of milk cartons.” You obviously think you’re mighty clever what with all them big fancy words, but why not try debating instead of abuse? Do you have it out for **county** for some other reason? Is there some backstory here that I’m not aware of? Again, I agree with your position there, so how about trying to defend it instead of flinging empty insults? ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/44 "2003-12-13T22:31:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ilsa\_Lund \* > \*\*Civility is beyond county’s abilities. \*\* So he has an excuse for uncivil behaviour, what’s yours? I’m sure I probably disagree with **county** on pretty much everything under the sun - but this attempt to create a pile-on because you can’t be bothered to argue coherently with him looks kinda low, even with the funny lines. **county** posts his opinion that children don’t have full rights in the way an adult does, (but specifically he says they should have freedom from beatings). You could:- A. Argue that kids should have the exact same rights as adults, or state which rights they should and shouldn’t hold in your opinion B. Insult **county** , watch the whole thing degenerate, start a pit thread so you can insult **county** some more, drag up his past posts and hope others will help with the kicking. Or did I miss something? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/45 "2003-12-13T22:35:32Z")
> [@](#): > > But County is right. Minors don’t have full rights. In fact, the law holds that, in some cases, their judgement can not be trusted and that there are certain decisions they are incapable of making. There is a big difference between “minors don’t have full rights” and “They are children, they don’t have a lot of rights beyond not being beaten or subjected to offensive language.” This statement is flat-out wrong, and upon having its wrongness pointed out to him repeatedly, **county** insists on clinging to it. Witness also his “gay” comment in the school uniforms thread; this is a reference back to yet another thread in which he further mocks and denigrates the civil rights of children (in that instance, a child of lesbian parents who was disciplined for using the word “gay” in school). > [@](#): > > In fact, the law holds that, in some cases, their judgement can not be trusted and that there are certain decisions they are incapable of making. (Can’t enter into contracts and no concentual sex, for two examples). Minors certainly can enter into contracts; they have the ability to get out of them based on their age but that doesn’t mean they can’t enter into them in the first place. As far as consensual sex goes, there are a lot of factors that go into that such that “no consensual sex” is too broad of a statement. > [@](#): > > In the late 80s, the Supreme Court ruled to curtail the freedom of speech afforded students (Hazelwood case, 1988, example cite) Hazelwood is actually a free press case, rather than free speech, but regardless it’s still consistent with Tinker (which is still controlling precedent). Students have First Amendment rights, but administrators have the right to exercise editorial control over school-based student publications. Note that a school would have no authority to halt publication of a newspaper by students produced without school funds and away from school property. Nor could the school stop students from reading or distributing that newspaper at school as long as their reading and distributing of it did not disrupt school activities. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/46 "2003-12-13T23:11:32Z")
> [@](#): > > You come back with something like this: “Your stupidity is matched only by your astounding inability to hide it. Pictures of your ability for rational thought can be found on the back of milk cartons.” > > You obviously think you’re mighty clever what with all them big fancy words, but why not try debating instead of abuse? Do you have it out for county for some other reason? Is there some backstory here that I’m not aware of? > > Again, I agree with your position there, so how about trying to defend it instead of flinging empty insults? The man parks in fire lanes and thinks that children are smehow subhuman. Why bother debating? I called him out for his blatant stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/47 "2003-12-13T23:38:34Z")
No, you didn’t call him out for his blatant stupidity. You answered his opinion with abuse that was, in this case, unprovoked. He was being civil when you decided to let loose. Get over yourself, dude. Really. You were the one who started the fireworks in that thread; until you did, it seemed like a prime chance to fight ignorance. You were flinging such oh-so-clever insults as “You are so dense that Torricelli could have taken your shit and made functional barometer out of it.” **county** ’s strongest response to your incessant, pointless badgering was “Ok, enough’s enough: If you want to, Bite Me.” In response, you started another Pit thread, since just one apparently wasn’t big enough to contain your polysyllabic, yet mysteriously juvenile, shitstorm. What on earth are you trying to accomplish? And by the way: > [@](#): > > Why bother debating? **Because that’s why we’re here. Get it?** ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/48 "2003-12-14T00:37:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Because that’s why we’re here. Get it? No, we’re in Great Debates to debate. We’re in the Pit to flame, and flaming **Ilsa** is. (I give you an A on the pitting, BTW. Would be an A+ but for the ease of hitting the target.) **County** is well deserving of what abuse he is receiving, at least IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/49 "2003-12-14T00:50:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jackelope \* > In response, you started another Pit thread, since just one apparently wasn’t big enough to contain your polysyllabic, yet mysteriously juvenile, shitstorm. What on earth are you trying to accomplish? Clearly **Ilsa\_Lund** did not want to discuss the topic of the linked thread and wanted to insult **county** , thus starting a _new_ thread to contain the _new_ topic. At the very least, it shows class to start your own thread rather than hijacking someone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/50 "2003-12-14T01:44:24Z")
I stand corrected on both counts: the Pit is for flaming, and that thread was about another topic, so starting a new one was the right thing to do. But class? No. **county** expressed a dissenting opinion _in a perfectly civil manner_, and **Ilsa** immediately began flinging vile insults with no substance to them whatsoever. Apparently **Ilsa** either was bringing issues from a previous thread or (this is my guess) just felt like opening up some verbal whoop-ass on somebody and thought, “Hey! Nobody likes **county**! I can berate him as savagely as I want and no one will interfere!” (I can’t believe I’m defending **county**.) ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/51 "2003-12-14T01:46:28Z")
> [@](#): > > county expressed a dissenting opinion in a perfectly civil manner, The point is that it was a vile and stupid manner and opinion. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/52 "2003-12-14T02:20:26Z")
> [@](#): > > …county expressed a dissenting opinion in a perfectly civil manner, [example] I hope you will not think too negatively of me as a result of this opinion, but I truly feel that beatings with axe handles are an acceptable way to solve union-management issues. [/example] This is a civil expression of a dissenting opinion. Were I moronic enough to hold such an opinion, I would expect to be called out for it. Except probably not, because I’d be really really really moronic. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/53 "2003-12-14T02:23:07Z")
DING DING! We have a winner! % ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/54 "2003-12-14T03:18:06Z")
Not once did you say “this is a vile and stupid opinion.” You came back with pointless, ad hominem attacks that had nothing to do with his opinions. To me, you’re looking about as logical and sane as he is right now. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/55 "2003-12-14T03:51:37Z")
**jackelope** , I do not feel shy in saying that some opinions automatically qualify one for moronhood. I am perfectly willing to be disabused, however. Could you name me a person who does not fit your definition of moronhood who honestly feels something akin to my above example? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/56 "2003-12-14T04:01:58Z")
Oh please. Just because he’s polite doesn’t mean he’s not a jackass. I recall everyone saying, “But **december** ’s so polite!” You know, just because someone says something totally stupid and vile in a civil manner doesn’t make it right! ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/57 "2003-12-14T04:20:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jackelope \* > \*\*Not once did you say “this is a vile and stupid opinion.” You came back with pointless, ad hominem attacks that had nothing to do with his opinions. To me, you’re looking about as logical and sane as he is right now. \*\* And you as intelligent. ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/58 "2003-12-14T04:24:45Z")
Excuse me? I have never once said that **county** is anything other than a dickhead. That’s not even remotely my point here. My point is that **Ilsa\_Lund** had no reason to start flinging shit _in the school uniforms thread_. Period. That is ALL I’M SAYING. In that thread, **county** said that corporal punishment should not be forbidden in public schools. He wasn’t ranting; he was presenting an opinion. While this is not my view, and makes me suspect that he has no children, you may recall that this was the prevalent opinion throughout the country until relatively recently, and is still so in much of the rest of the world. _That doesn’t make it right_. I’m not saying he’s right. **county** is an asshole, as has been proven every time I’ve seen his screen name. But Jebus, folks, what happened to fighting ignorance? **county** is clearly as ignorant as the day is long, and it seems to me that simply spewing bile all over one’s keyboard is unlikely to change that. He didn’t provoke the attack in that thread; he stated his opinion and got dipped in shit for it. Nice fucking going, **Ilsa**. Classy. Way to take the moral high ground. That’s as clear as I can make my point here. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/59 "2003-12-14T04:27:11Z")
> [@](#): > > My point is that Ilsa\_Lund had no reason to start flinging shit in the school uniforms thread. Period. That is ALL I’M SAYING. That is untrue, and an opinion at best. When I see the assertion that minors are somehow subhuman, I will react. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802/60 "2003-12-14T04:50:15Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Ilsa\_Lund** _ > Pictures of your ability for rational thought can be found on the back of milk cartons. [That is a clever line.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=228268&perpage=50&highlight=milk&pagenumber=4) :dubious: Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/county/218802.md?page=4)