# Couple of Cheney shotgun questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 15, 2006, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564 "2006-02-15T01:05:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MaryEFoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MaryEFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaryEFoo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/1 "2006-02-15T01:05:29Z")
1. The load was birdshot, but what grade of birdshot? 2. At least two of the early stories (worded identically) gave the distance from Cheney to Whittington as 30 meters (about 100 feet). The SF Chron story was picked up from the New York Times and gave it as 30 feet. It gives a different picture; which has been confirmed, if either? 3. Cheney’s shotgun is 28-guage. I’m a farm kid, we had 10-guage, 12-guage, and 4-10 shotguns. What distinguishes a 28-guage? ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/2 "2006-02-15T01:15:33Z")
I can’t answer 1 or 2, but I found [this info about the 28 Gauge](http://www.chuckhawks.com/28gauge.htm). > [@](#): > > 28 gauge guns typically have light recoil, pattern well, and point like a dream. They are lightweight, easy to handle guns. They are far more effective than their small bore might suggest, patterning much like a 20 gauge. > > -snip- > > The 28 is not the gauge for large size shot, as a limited number of pellets can be accommodated in the standard 3/4 ounce load. Like the .410, the 28 is probably at its best with #7 1/2, 8, and 9 size shot. #7 1/2 is probably a pretty good compromise for shooting most upland game and #9 gives the pattern density to break clay targets at reasonable ranges. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/3 "2006-02-15T01:17:13Z")
It’s smaller than a 20 gauge and bigger than a .410 [http://www.chuckhawks.com/intro\_gauges.htm](http://www.chuckhawks.com/intro_gauges.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Danalan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@Danalan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danalan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/4 "2006-02-15T01:19:20Z")
> [@MaryEFoo](#): > > 1. The load was birdshot, but what grade of birdshot? > > 2. At least two of the early stories (worded identically) gave the distance from Cheney to Whittington as 30 meters (about 100 feet). The SF Chron story was picked up from the New York Times and gave it as 30 feet. It gives a different picture; which has been confirmed, if either? > > 3. Cheney’s shotgun is 28-guage. I’m a farm kid, we had 10-guage, 12-guage, and 4-10 shotguns. What distinguishes a 28-guage? From [here](http://www.chuckhawks.com/28gauge.htm): 1. The common loads for 28-guage: > [@](#): > > For years Federal offered a 1 ounce magnum load in 28 gauge. I have not seen it listed in recent Federal catalogs, but it has been picked-up by Winchester in the form of a Super-X High Brass load with a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1205 fps. Shot sizes are 6, 7 1/2, and 8. The one ounce load allows efficient use of shot as large as #6, which number 225 to the ounce. Winchester offers no other 28 gauge hunting load. > > Remington also offers exactly one hunting load in 28 gauge. This is a high brass Express Extra Long Range load with 3/4 ounce of #6 or #7 1/2 shot at a MV of 1295 fps. There are 262 #7 1/2 shot in a 3/4 ounce load, but only 169 #6 pellets. > > Federal’s single 28 gauge offering for the hunter is a Premier high brass 3/4 ounce load at a MV of 1295 fps. Shot sizes 6, 7 1/2, and 8 are the choices. There are 307 #8 shot in a 3/4 ounce load, which makes for pleasantly dense patterns. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/5 "2006-02-15T01:20:13Z")
Nice simulpost. We even linked to the same site. As far as the OPs second question goes, I’ve heard 30 yards. None of the news I’ve seen has said 30 feet. 30 foot’s range would result in much more than the ‘superficial’ injuries that have been reported, IMHO ---
**Author:** ![Danalan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@Danalan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danalan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/6 "2006-02-15T01:21:00Z")
Wow. :smack: (Preview means look for new posts, too, dummy!) ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/7 "2006-02-15T01:22:18Z")
I think [chuckhawks.com](http://chuckhawks.com) is about to see a nice little spike in traffic. ---
**Author:** ![Danalan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@Danalan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danalan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/8 "2006-02-15T01:23:19Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#): > > Nice simulpost. We even linked to the same site. > > As far as the OPs second question goes, I’ve heard 30 yards. None of the news I’ve seen has said 30 feet. 30 foot’s range would result in much more than the ‘superficial’ injuries that have been reported, IMHO I don’t know that pellets in your heart is all that “superficial”, but I agree that at 30 feet, we’d be looking at a lot larger wound confined to a smaller area. ---
**Author:** ![Danalan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@Danalan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danalan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/9 "2006-02-15T01:47:38Z")
7 1/2 shot, according to the official report. From [TSG](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0213061cheney2.html), how appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/10 "2006-02-15T02:03:27Z")
> [@MaryEFoo](#): > > 1. Cheney’s shotgun is 28-guage. I’m a farm kid, we had 10-guage, 12-guage, and 4-10 shotguns. What distinguishes a 28-guage? **Scruloose** and **CynicalGabe** already provided sufficient information on the 28 gauge, so I just wanted to add that it’s a largely deprecated chambering; the only 28 gauge shotguns I’ve seen have been older or “collectable” doubles that are intended for trap or short-range small bird hunting (quail and phesant), although I see that Ruger offers an O/A in that chambering. The round has often been disparaged as a “ladies gun”, but in fact both the recoil of the round and the couple of guns I’ve handled have been light and pleasent to carry. (Contrast that to carrying a fully ribbed 28" O/A 12 gauge around all day and you can see why the 28 has its place.) There’s also a 16 guage, which in my mind is ideal for small game (rabbit, squirrel) and small to medium fowl. Lamentedly, it’s not a popular caliber compared to the do-it-all 12 guage, but for someone who enjoys a day of popping around the countryside and killing small furry and feathery things it’s quite alright. For waterfowl and turkey, however the 12 guage is kind of mandatory. I personally think the .410 is pretty useless except as a training gun for the little ones, but to each his own. As far as the shooting, while I’ve enjoyed the jokes at Dick “Mad Panda” Cheney’s expense as much as anyone, from the details I’ve read it appears that Wittington was as much or more at fault than Cheney. It’s tempting to argue that Cheney violated Rule #4 (“Know what your target is and what is behind it,”) but when bird hunting in heavy brush or or marsh it’s quite easy for someone to become concealed by ground cover, hunters orange vest or no, and thus, it’s important to stay in contact with your party members and inform them of your location. I don’t find the accident excusible and find the comments by the land owner–that this sort of thing is just an occasional accepted consequence of hunting–to be disturbingly dismissive, but I don’t know that Cheney should be villified; at worst, the culpability falls upon the group collectively for not controlling their fields of fire. It’s given the comedians plenty of fodder, though, and for that we can be thankful. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/11 "2006-02-15T03:55:53Z")
> [@MaryEFoo](#): > > 1. Cheney’s shotgun is 28-guage. I’m a farm kid, we had 10-guage, 12-guage, and 4-10 shotguns. What distinguishes a 28-guage? The gauge of a shotgun is determined by the number of lead balls the diameter of the barrel that it would take to weigh one pound. 10-gauge shotgun, 10 spherical balls, 12-gauge, 12 balls, 28-gauge, 28 balls. Obviously, 28-gauge is pretty small. That’s not to excuse Vice-President Cheney. I had it explained to me, and explained to my children, that you were responsible for the projectile for the entire trajectory, and not just to the target. By definition, if you shoot someone in the face without intending to, you were careless. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/12 "2006-02-15T04:09:14Z")
Well, it doesn’t take much more than a ladies’ gun to take down a pen-raised quail. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/13 "2006-02-15T12:19:14Z")
> [@Bill Door](#): > > The gauge of a shotgun is determined by the number of lead balls the diameter of the barrel that it would take to weigh one pound. 10-gauge shotgun, 10 spherical balls, 12-gauge, 12 balls, 28-gauge, 28 balls. Obviously, 28-gauge is pretty small. But not 2.8 times as small as 10-gauge. The diameter would decrease with the cube root of the gauge. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/14 "2006-02-15T13:24:08Z")
> [@Stranger...](#): > > so I just wanted to add that it’s a largely deprecated chambering; the only 28 gauge shotguns I’ve seen have been older or “collectable” doubles that are intended for trap or short-range small bird hunting (quail and phesant), although I see that Ruger offers an O/A in that chambering. The round has often been disparaged as a “ladies gun”, but in fact both the recoil of the round and the couple of guns I’ve handled have been light and pleasent to carry. (Contrast that to carrying a fully ribbed 28" O/A 12 gauge around all day and you can see why the 28 has its place.) (I must preface this with I can’t believe **Stranger** posted something a tad off) The 28 guage shotgun is a premiere shotgun and load for exactly this type of hunting, quail and dove, and some grouse. There are a number of high end manufacturer’s that make 28 gauge shotguns (mostly in an Over/Under (O/U) configuration with some side by sides available), and more that incorporate the 28 in a tube set. It is not a good load at ranges that pheasant can be taken at and it would never be used for shooting Trap. Skeet shooting has four disciplines and is normally shot as one event with 4 100 target subevents. One subevent is 12 gauge, the 2nd is 20, the third 28 gauge, and the fourth 410. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/15 "2006-02-15T16:19:34Z")
> [@BF](#): > > (I must preface this with I can’t believe **Stranger** posted something a tad off) The 28 guage shotgun is a premiere shotgun and load for exactly this type of hunting, quail and dove, and some grouse. There are a number of high end manufacturer’s that make 28 gauge shotguns (mostly in an Over/Under (O/U) configuration with some side by sides available), and more that incorporate the 28 in a tube set. It is not a good load at ranges that pheasant can be taken at and it would never be used for shooting Trap. Skeet shooting has four disciplines and is normally shot as one event with 4 100 target subevents. One subevent is 12 gauge, the 2nd is 20, the third 28 gauge, and the fourth 410. You’re correct that some of the high end makers still produce the 28 gauge but it’s hardly a popular chambering in comparison to the .410 and the 12 gauge; I’ve seen maybe half a dozen, and most of those, despite your assertion that it’s not an appropriate chambering for shooting trap, were in fact used for trap shooting. (Whether it’s a good choice or not I’ll concede to more experienced trap shooters.) I was also going to say that it isn’t found in _any_ pump guns or autoloaders, but in fact doing a brief search turned up the fact that Winchster makes a version of the 870 chambered in 28 gauge, although I’ve never seen one. Regardless, it’s not a widely used round in comparison to the more popular chamberings. You’re correct in contesting my claim that it’d be a good gun for pheasent; I was struggling for something in addition to quail and put down the first bird that came to mind. (I was going to say dove, but then people get all squiggy when you talk about shooting “peace birds”, as if they aren’t just as brainless and tasty as quail.) Anyway, it’s an excellent round–superior to the .410 but available in a similarly lightweight platform–but just not especially popular in general use, which was my essential point. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/16 "2006-02-15T16:35:44Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#): > > Well, it doesn’t take much more than a ladies’ gun to take down a pen-raised quail. No, but it takes more skill to hit birds on the wing with a smaller gauge shotgun and a 28 GA would be less likely to shred the quail than a 12 GA. It’s not unheard of for skilled shots to use less than the maximum firepower to accomplish their goal. You might need a 12 GA. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/17 "2006-02-15T17:12:20Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#): > > As far as the OPs second question goes, I’ve heard 30 yards. None of the news I’ve seen has said 30 feet. 30 foot’s range would result in much more than the ‘superficial’ injuries that have been reported, IMHO I’m having a hard time believing that 7-1/2 shot could penetrate to the heart at 30 yards though. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/18 "2006-02-15T17:19:17Z")
> [@Stranger...](#): > > I’ve seen maybe half a dozen, and most of those, despite your assertion that it’s not an appropriate chambering for shooting trap, were in **fact used for trap shooting**. (Whether it’s a good choice or not I’ll concede to more experienced trap shooters.) Emphasis mine. Let’s make sure we’re talking the same thing here, [this diagram](http://www.constructionwork.com/resources_details_1264combination_skeet_and_trap_field_layout_with_shotfall_danger_zone.html?PHPSESSID=b992079ef13c273610f919f944079400) shows a combination trap field and skeet field. I shot 4000 registered targets in the ATA last year and saw two 13 year old females shooting 20 ga autos, but no one else shooting anything smaller than that. I’d venture a guess that 98% of the trap shooters I’ve shot with shoot 12 ga. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/19 "2006-02-15T17:43:14Z")
> [@BF](#): > > Emphasis mine. Let’s make sure we’re talking the same thing here, [this diagram](http://www.constructionwork.com/resources_details_1264combination_skeet_and_trap_field_layout_with_shotfall_danger_zone.html?PHPSESSID=b992079ef13c273610f919f944079400) shows a combination trap field and skeet field. ::shrug:: I’m not saying it’s a great choice, just that I’ve seen people doing it. Not being a trap and skeet enthusiast I can’t really debate the point knowledgeably, so I’ll concede to your experience on the topic. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564/20 "2006-02-15T17:48:24Z")
No prob, **Stranger** I just wanted to make sure we weren’t comparing apples to oranges. As from my first post, where I do see a lot of 28 ga shooting is in skeet, as it is one of the four events in that sport. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-of-cheney-shotgun-questions/344564.md?page=2)