# Couple Q's about NYC pedestrian crossing signs **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 9, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567 "2010-04-09T19:17:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![fusoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecccb3/32.png) [@fusoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fusoya)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567/1 "2010-04-09T19:17:50Z")
This might not be the appropriate site to ask, but I know there are a lot of other NYC dopers on here, so maybe someone knows something. Okay, first of all, why on earth does Park Ave in midtown Manhattan not have walk/don’t walk signs??? On the stretch from Grand Central (44th st) up to at least 60th St, there ARE painted pedestrian crossings across Park Ave, but the ONLY visual indication of when it is or isn’t safe to cross are the red/yellow/green car lights. These really aren’t any help at all for pedestrians, especially since everywhere else in NYC, there is a 30 second “don’t walk blinking” period, which gives crossers sufficient time to get out of the street, but is in an indication to not enter the street if you haven’t yet (or to RUN across). A green to yellow to red takes place across about 5 seconds, not nearly enough time to cross Park Ave on foot, even if you’re already halfway across. Secondly, there are a couple places around Brooklyn which have “press to cross” buttons. There’s a particuarly nasty crossing near my home (McGuinness Blvd) which is high traffic and high speed, and the cross street is a residential road. The cross street stays on DON’T WALK for about 3 minutes, and then changes to WALK and then literally 5 second later will start blinking DON’T WALK. If you aren’t at the intersection the moment it changes to WALK, you’re gonna have to wait for the next 3 minute interval. Now, isn’t the idea behind those “press to cross” buttons that they give pedestrians a greater WALK period? Pressing the button does absolutely nothing to the crossing cycle. I would believe that maybe this one has just been broken for the last couple years, but in my whole history of living in NYC, I’ve never seen one of these buttons actually do anything (as opposed to the buttons in Stamford, CT which actually DO give you extra time to cross if you push the button). What is their intended purpose? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567/2 "2010-04-09T19:46:30Z")
First off, real NYC pedestrians don’t pay any attention to the DON’T WALK signs. They know that as New York pedestrians they have the God-given and lawsuit-supported right to walk anywhere they damn well please at any time, and that automobiles do not belong anywhere they want to put their feet. (I’m a NYC pedestrian myself, but I don’t have that overly developed sense of immortality and invulnerability that those who’ve walked here their entire life seem to have) Park Avenue is a strange ave; it runs in both directions and crosstown buses have no bus stops there and as you note there are no pedestrian walk / don’t walk signs. I think it was a kind of snooty avenue and still has aspirations & pretentions in that direction. It was originally supposed to be 4th Avenue. It has a grassy median strip with flowers and trees etc that other avenues in the city don’t have. ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567/3 "2010-04-09T19:56:34Z")
> [@fusoya](#): > > Now, isn’t the idea behind those “press to cross” buttons that they give pedestrians a greater WALK period? Pressing the button does absolutely nothing to the crossing cycle. I would believe that maybe this one has just been broken for the last couple years, but in my whole history of living in NYC, I’ve never seen one of these buttons actually do anything (as opposed to the buttons in Stamford, CT which actually DO give you extra time to cross if you push the button). What is their intended purpose? I’m not from NYC, but every single button that I have came across sole purpose is to change a “permanent” don’t walk sign to a walk for one cycle only, and then go back to a don’t walk on the next cycle. It never ceases to amaze me to watch people press these buttons and wonder why the sign doesn’t instantly change, screwing up every other light that is tied to that signal. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567/4 "2010-04-09T20:42:08Z")
The light turns from don’t walk to walk to don’t walk for a simple reason - It says “WALK” just long enough for you to start crossing. It then blinks “DONT WALK” because you should then have just enough time to get across by the time the automobile traffic light turns green. If you actually obey the sign and don’t use a walker, you should not be caught in the middle of the street when the light turns green for the cars. I have the exact same thing here in Canada for the corssing beside my work. The WALK sympbol is only on for about 5 seconds. It makes sense. Odds are there’s only one or a few people waiting to cross. Why make traffic sit there for 2 minutes when 30 seconds will get people across, especially if it’s just pedestrians. As for timing, yes, all it does is turn the light red in sync with the other red light patterns when it’s your turn, if the traffic department programmed it correctly. It’s got to be annoying to be on a busy street and the red light in front of you is for no reason since there’s no cross traffic or pedestrians. It would make you long for the days of traffic cops… (RANT: You’d think it would be simple with modern traffic sensors and computers to program a street light so that it would be more responsive to traffic like the old traffic cop days) ---
**Author:** ![Doctor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Doctor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567/5 "2010-04-09T23:00:49Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > First off, real NYC pedestrians don’t pay any attention to the DON’T WALK signs. They know that as New York pedestrians they have the God-given and lawsuit-supported right to walk anywhere they damn well please at any time, and that automobiles do not belong anywhere they want to put their feet. True. I will note that even the police in NYC are perfectly fine with people jaywalking – as long as you don’t get hit by a car, they don’t care what you do. Park Ave? Yeah, pretentious. Probably don’t want to change their precious turn of the century traffic signals or something as it would ruin the aesthetic of Park Ave or some such nonsense. Maybe someone out there really knows, but that would be my guess. ---
**Author:** ![fusoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecccb3/32.png) [@fusoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fusoya)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567/6 "2010-04-09T23:39:59Z")
I really want to know who keeps spreading that myth that if you cross a street that isn’t a properly signaled pedestrian crossing, you will get a ticket. Maybe I’ll start a second thread about it, because that has Straight Dope written all over it. [I actually googled my question and found an answer](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F04EEDC153AF931A1575AC0A9619C8B63) to the first question. It’s actually a totally different explanation than I (or the other dopers who responded so far) thought – apparently the signal posts require drilling at least 2 feet into the ground, and there’s less than 2 feet between the street and the surface of the Metro North train tunnels. I have a hard time believing that there isn’t some other way they can be installed though. Note that this article was written 3 years ago and the signs are still not in place. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567/7 "2010-04-10T06:24:37Z")
I’ll simply add the old bit of black humor that “In New York City, there are two kinds of pedesrians: the quick and the dead.” ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567/8 "2010-04-11T02:22:32Z")
> [@fusoya](#): > > Okay, first of all, why on earth does Park Ave in midtown Manhattan not have walk/don’t walk signs??? They’re too pedestrian. ---
**Author:** ![valleyofthedolls](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a4c791/32.png) [@valleyofthedolls](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/valleyofthedolls)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567/9 "2010-04-11T06:03:26Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Park Avenue is a strange ave; it runs in both directions and crosstown buses have no bus stops there and as you note there are no pedestrian walk / don’t walk signs. I think it was a kind of snooty avenue and still has aspirations & pretentions in that direction. It was originally supposed to be 4th Avenue. It has a grassy median strip with flowers and trees etc that other avenues in the city don’t have. Why do you think it’s strange? Metro-North had elevated tracks running on Park Avenue which is why it’s is double wide. The Park Avenue tunnel was built sometime in the early 20th century and most of those tracks went underground. If you stand on the malls, you can feel the vibrations from the trains. And it’s a good thing those malls are there otherwise most of the the east side would be bisected by a six lane highway. As aside, the malls were much larger and the avenue much prettier up until, I think, 1925 or 1930 when they were reduced to accomodate more traffic. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567/10 "2010-04-11T15:08:56Z")
> [@fusoya](#): > > I really want to know who keeps spreading that myth that if you cross a street that isn’t a properly signaled pedestrian crossing, you will get a ticket. Maybe I’ll start a second thread about it, because that has Straight Dope written all over it. > . Certain types of jaywalking are illegal – such as crossing kittycorner (diagonally) through an intersection or crossing against a signal. However crossing where no crossing is marked is fine as long as you yield to vehicular traffic. Pedestrians DO NOT have right of way outside of marked crossings. NY VTL (New York Vehicle Traffic Law) sections 1112 & 1152. If no pedestrian signal is provided, pedestrians may follow traffic signals provided for cars (crossing when facing a green signal) but may not begin crossing on yellow. NYVTL 1111(a)(3) and (b)(3). Not legal advice, but my reading of this is that if you are struck by a car outside of an intersection, you can be ticketed for failure to yield. So the legend may be partially true. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567/11 "2010-04-11T17:46:13Z")
> [@fusoya](#): > > Now, isn’t the idea behind those “press to cross” buttons that they give pedestrians a greater WALK period? I always figured they were like the sensors that detect a car waiting in the left-turn lane. There’s no point in giving a green light (or a walk signal) at all if there’s no one there to use it. If there is, the system that controls the lights at the intersection will work you in when it can. Think of it like the call button when you want to get on an elevator. The elevator doesn’t instantly appear, and it doesn’t ignore everything else on its way to come get you, but when it can get you, it will. ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567/12 "2010-04-11T17:54:10Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Not legal advice, but my reading of this is that if you are struck by a car outside of an intersection, you can be ticketed for failure to yield. So the legend may be partially true. Maybe I live a sheltered life, but unless the cop is Barney Fife with nothing better to do, I have never heard of someone getting a ticket for jaywalking unless an accident occured. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567/13 "2010-04-11T18:14:32Z")
> [@srzss05](#): > > Maybe I live a sheltered life, but unless the cop is Barney Fife with nothing better to do, I have never heard of someone getting a ticket for jaywalking unless an accident occured. Right. Note how I said “if you are struck by a car…” ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567/14 "2010-04-11T20:51:10Z")
Some years back, when Rudy Giuliani was still the mayor of New York, he decided that he was going to put a stop to jaywalking. The people of New York, even those who liked Rudy, ignored this completely. We’d been jaywalking for generations. We crossed streets wherever and whenever we felt like it, and we were damn well going to keep doing it. And we did. And the police did not issue a single ticket. One of the local newspapers (I think it was the _Post_) decided that they’d send a reporter out to get a ticket, so that they could write a story about it. She tried everything. Crossing in the middle of the street, crossing against the light, crossing in the middle of the street _and_ against the light, crossing where there was no pedestrican crosswalk, all right in front of police officers. No ticket. Finally she walked up to a cop and practically demanded a ticket. He still wouldn’t write one, and I remember the story saying that the police not only didn’t know what the statute was under which they’d write such a ticket, they weren’t even sure there was one, and they just didn’t want to be bothered with the whole thing. Which struck me as eminently good common sense. Just one more reason a lot of people got really, really tired of Rudy. ---
**Author:** ![mo50](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@mo50](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mo50)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567/15 "2010-04-12T13:52:57Z")
> [@srzss05](#): > > Maybe I live a sheltered life, but unless the cop is Barney Fife with nothing better to do, I have never heard of someone getting a ticket for jaywalking unless an accident occured. Hell, crazy as it sounds, we’ve got cops writing tickets on virtually empty subway cars at 3am for putting your bag on the seat next to you. Oh, PS: Just a NYC pedestrian trick : when jaywalking, or even just crossing with the light, always make sure there’s another pedestrian between you and the oncoming traffic. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567/16 "2010-04-12T17:38:33Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Some years back, when Rudy Giuliani was still the mayor of New York, he decided that he was going to put a stop to jaywalking. The people of New York, even those who liked Rudy, ignored this completely. We’d been jaywalking for generations. We crossed streets wherever and whenever we felt like it, and we were damn well going to keep doing it. And we did. And the police did not issue a single ticket. > > One of the local newspapers (I think it was the _Post_) decided that they’d send a reporter out to get a ticket, so that they could write a story about it. She tried everything. Crossing in the middle of the street, crossing against the light, crossing in the middle of the street _and_ against the light, crossing where there was no pedestrican crosswalk, all right in front of police officers. No ticket. > > Finally she walked up to a cop and practically demanded a ticket. He still wouldn’t write one, and I remember the story saying that the police not only didn’t know what the statute was under which they’d write such a ticket, they weren’t even sure there was one, and they just didn’t want to be bothered with the whole thing. Which struck me as eminently good common sense. > > Just one more reason a lot of people got really, really tired of Rudy. I recall a discussion of this in some Canadian context. Some provinces, there is no law against jaywalking; the law is “obstructing traffic”. So basically, if a car is coming and you cause it to stop (or have to slow down significantly) that is an offense. But crossing anywhere anytime when the coast is clear, or by standing on the median line waiting for them to pass by - that is perfectly legal. I guess the question is - what is the law in NYC? ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567/17 "2010-04-12T19:25:13Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I guess the question is - what is the law in NYC? Here you go: [ARTICLE 27](http://ypdcrime.com/vt/article27.htm) PEDESTRIANS` RIGHTS AND DUTIES Section 1150. Pedestrians subject to traffic regulations. 1151. Pedestrians` right of way in crosswalks. 1151-a. Pedestrians` right of way on sidewalks. 1152. Crossing at other than crosswalks. 1153. Provisions relating to blind or visually impaired persons. 1155. Pedestrians to use right half of crosswalks. 1156. Pedestrians on roadways. 1157. Pedestrians soliciting rides, or business. S 1150. Pedestrians subject to traffic regulations. Pedestrians shall be subject to traffic-control signals as provided in section eleven hundred eleven of this title, but at all other places pedestrians shall be accorded the privileges and shall be subject to the restrictions stated in this article. S 1151. Pedestrians` right of way in crosswalks. (a) When traffic-control signals are not in place or not in operation the driver of a vehicle shall yield the right of way, slowing down or stopping if need be to so yield, to a pedestrian crossing the roadway within a crosswalk on the roadway upon which the vehicle is traveling, except that any pedestrian crossing a roadway at a point where a pedestrian tunnel or overpass has been provided shall yield the right of way to all vehicles. (b) No pedestrian shall suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle which is so close that it is impractical for the driver to yield. (c) Whenever any vehicle is stopped at a marked crosswalk or at any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection to permit a pedestrian to cross the roadway, the driver of any other vehicle approaching from the rear shall not overtake and pass such stopped vehicle. S 1151-a. Pedestrians` right of way on sidewalks. The driver of a vehicle emerging from or entering an alleyway, building, private road or driveway shall yield the right of way to any pedestrian approaching on any sidewalk extending across such alleyway, building entrance, road or driveway. S 1152. Crossing at other than crosswalks. (a) Every pedestrian crossing a roadway at any point other than within a marked crosswalk or within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection shall yield the right of way to all vehicles upon the roadway. (b) Any pedestrian crossing a roadway at a point where a pedestrian tunnel or overhead pedestrian crossing has been provided shall yield the right of way to all vehicles upon the roadway. (c) No pedestrian shall cross a roadway intersection diagonally unless authorized by official traffic-control devices; and, when authorized to cross diagonally, pedestrians shall cross only in accordance with the official traffic-control devices pertaining to such crossing movements. S 1153. Provisions relating to blind or visually impaired persons. (a) Notwithstanding the foregoing provisions of this article every driver of a vehicle approaching an intersection or crosswalk shall yield the right of way to a pedestrian crossing or attempting to cross the roadway when such pedestrian is accompanied by a guide dog or using a cane which is metallic or white in color or white with a red tip. (b) No person, unless blind or visually impaired, shall use on any street or highway a cane which is metallic or white in color or white with a red tip. (c) This section shall not be construed as making obligatory the employment of the use of a guide dog or of a cane or walking stick of any kind by a person blind or visually impaired. S 1155. Pedestrians to use right half of crosswalks. Pedestrians shall move, whenever practicable, upon the right half of crosswalks. S 1156. Pedestrians on roadways. (a) Where sidewalks are provided and they may be used with safety it shall be unlawful for any pedestrian to walk along and upon an adjacent roadway. (b) Where sidewalks are not provided any pedestrian walking along and upon a highway shall when practicable walk only on the left side of the roadway or its shoulder facing traffic which may approach from the opposite direction. Upon the approach of any vehicle from the opposite direction, such pedestrian shall move as far to the left as is practicable. S 1157. Pedestrians soliciting rides, or business. (a) No person shall stand in a roadway for the purpose of soliciting a ride, or to solicit from or sell to an occupant of any vehicle. (b) No person shall stand on or in proximity to a street or highway for the purpose of soliciting the watching or guarding of any vehicle while parked or about to be parked on a street or highway. (c) No person shall occupy any part of a state highway, except in a city or village, in any manner for the purpose of selling or soliciting. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-qs-about-nyc-pedestrian-crossing-signs/535567/18 "2010-04-12T22:34:04Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I recall a discussion of this in some Canadian context. Some provinces, there is no law against jaywalking; the law is “obstructing traffic”. So basically, if a car is coming and you cause it to stop (or have to slow down significantly) that is an offense. But crossing anywhere anytime when the coast is clear, or by standing on the median line waiting for them to pass by - that is perfectly legal. > > I guess the question is - what is the law in NYC? Is this this thing on? _tap tap_ The law is you must yield to vehicular traffic if you aren’t in an intersection, and you may never cross an intersection diagnonally. See VTL 1152. Or my previous post.