# Couple Sues Docs who said Child Wouldn't Have Down Syndrome **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 9, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302 "2012-03-09T18:29:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/81 "2012-06-21T20:05:10Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I am discussing what one does with the results of the test, which is a legitimate question. I think people can do what they want with the test results. No judgments, right? > [@](#): > > I think one reason people considering genetic defects to be worth aborting over is because they can, not because it’s a good reason. If it weren’t possible, there wouldn’t be very much to talk about. > [@](#): > > What if all reasons were on the table, would this one really be the worst? No. And again, nobody has said it is. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/82 "2012-06-21T20:15:17Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So you’re saying the child would rather be not born than have Down Syndrome? > > I know alot of people with Down Syndrome. I’ve never ever heard any say they wish they had been aborted or not alive. > > People with Down syndrome are some of the most fun people on the planet. We could all use more of them. I’m saying the parents had a right to know and were a bit misinformed. I would’ve supported their decision. And…not all kids with Down syndrome are the bees knees. I used to work in an environment where all of our kids were violent/destructive/couldn’t be in public school. Someone having Down syndrome doesn’t make them an automatic angel. There wasn’t a kid I had I didn’t love, though. But no, I don’t advocate for women to keep fetuses with chromosomal disorders just so the rest of us can learn a thing or two about life. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/83 "2012-06-21T20:17:02Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Again, not judging. Just saying that most people, including you, don’t have a really solid understanding of DS, or have stopped to think this like I have, let alone experienced it. > . No, you are judging. Raising a kid with a disability is horribly expensive, and most can’t afford it. Does it even bother you that a shocking number of kids with disabilities are abused? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/84 "2012-06-21T21:44:44Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > No, you are judging. Nope. > [@](#): > > Raising a kid with a disability is horribly expensive, and most can’t afford it That’s not true though. SOMETIMES raising a child with a disability is prohibitively expensive, sometimes not. Sometimes raising a normal kid is prohibitively expensive too. Just declaring that disability = bankruptcy is way too simplistic. > [@](#): > > Does it even bother you that a shocking number of kids with disabilities are abused? Yes, but a shocking number of kids without disabilities are also abused. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/85 "2012-06-21T21:45:55Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think people can do what they want with the test results. No judgments, right? Right. > [@](#): > > If it weren’t possible, there wouldn’t be very much to talk about. Exactly. > [@](#): > > No. And again, nobody has said it is. Some have. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/86 "2012-06-21T21:48:30Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > And…not all kids with Down syndrome are the bees knees. Of course. Not all normal kids are the bees knees either. > [@](#): > > I used to work in an environment where all of our kids were violent/destructive/couldn’t be in public school. Someone having Down syndrome doesn’t make them an automatic angel. Quite true. Did all those kids have Down syndrome though? > [@](#): > > There wasn’t a kid I had I didn’t love, though. But no, I don’t advocate for women to keep fetuses with chromosomal disorders just so the rest of us can learn a thing or two about life. Me neither. I’m just saying you could do worse in a kid sometimes. And parents who think they are going to automatically get something “better” might be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/87 "2012-06-21T21:52:14Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Some have. Nobody in this thread said anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/88 "2012-06-21T22:57:36Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Tangentially, I hope they put their kid up for adoption (unless they’ve had a change of heart since it was born). I can’t think of a worse environment for a disabled child to be brought up in, than one where the parents resent its very existence. Reminds me of the boy in my sister’s grade with Down’s Syndrome. He was one year behind me, and we rode the same bus. His mom would walk him from the house to the bus with the phone glued to her ear _every single day_, like she could not spare 2 minutes of time to spend with him alone and wish him a good day. It was sad. :rolleyes: She’s four. And if you honestly can’t understand parents wanting to be able to terminate a pregnancy due to Down syndrome without being resentful monsters, well, you’re in a small minority, because 89% of couples who get that news choose to terminate. [QUOTE=rachelellogram] there are many parents who could provide a better life than that. That’s all I meant. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: Yes, there are oh so many loving homes waiting to adopt a special needs child. Uh-huh. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/89 "2012-06-21T23:02:47Z")
\*\*lance strongarm \*\*, have you considered starting an “Ask the parent of a child with Downs Syndrome” thread? Because your positive experience might prove reassuring to parents facing this possibility, or those with high risk pregnancies with qualms about terminating a pregnancy. I just gave birth to my first child at 41, and had the results of my amnio revealed chromosome abnormalities, I would have terminated. Had the doctor obscured those test results, I would have sued. Why, after being childless for so long would I consider ending a pregnancy? Because yesterday’s obit page reminded me that if one gives birth to a special needs child in their 40s, one hopes to outlive that child. The mother of a high school boyfriend with no extended family…didn’t. Daniel, a muscular (freakishly strong), hyperactive and easily frustrated man with Down’s is now 47, and his only living relative (brother David) cannot or will not care for him. When we were kids, Daniel would get angry if we didn’t include him on every date and would destroy furniture, break Windows, door facing, dent cars. If Daniel didn’t get what he wanted at every meal, same result. Daniel was incontinent, masturbated when agitated, and shouted expletives learned in public school. Daniel could also be incredibly gentle and affectionate, but there was little to no indication as to when that mood would change. His mother loved him very much, and returned to college to study special education for the sole purpose of advocating for him and others like him in the public school setting. Life with Daniel was chaotic. Now that his advocate and only family member who could properly care for him is gone: Daniel will finish his chaotic life in a home full of strangers. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/90 "2012-06-21T23:16:39Z")
And this thread is months old. Shouldn’t have posted. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/91 "2012-06-21T23:39:29Z")
Yeah we’re on the same page, **mister nyx** 🙂 Lettuce not fight! I know how it is. Zombies don’t tell you what they are until _after_ they eat your face off. Seriously though, there really are a lot of people anxious to adopt special needs children. There are waiting lists, as mentioned by **lance strongarm**. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/92 "2012-06-22T00:00:53Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > …Seriously though, there really are a lot of people anxious to adopt special needs children. There are waiting lists, as mentioned by **lance strongarm**. I have heard this claim many times over many decades, but have never seen anything backing it up, ever. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/93 "2012-06-22T00:09:51Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > I have heard this claim many times over many decades, but have never seen anything backing it up, ever. Oh, I thought this was common knowledge. From a quick google: [http://www.mhdsa.org/prenatal-diagnosis/adoption-resources.html](http://www.mhdsa.org/prenatal-diagnosis/adoption-resources.html) [http://www.everydayhealth.com/blogs/diagnosis-down-syndrome/orphans-with-down-syndrome](http://www.everydayhealth.com/blogs/diagnosis-down-syndrome/orphans-with-down-syndrome) [http://www.laurachristianson.com/laura/down-syndrome-adoption-q-a/](http://www.laurachristianson.com/laura/down-syndrome-adoption-q-a/) > **[Down Syndrome Adoption Explodes in Popularity](https://www.rainbowkids.com/adoption-stories/down-syndrome-adoption-explodes-in-popularity-618)** > > Shelley and Robert Bedford have a wonderfully familiar adoption story that families throughout the USA can relate to: Their hearts called them to expand their family through adoption, and a year later they brought home their longed for child, Xander.... ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/94 "2012-06-22T00:16:21Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Oh, I thought this was common knowledge. From a quick google: > > [http://www.mhdsa.org/prenatal-diagnosis/adoption-resources.html](http://www.mhdsa.org/prenatal-diagnosis/adoption-resources.html) > [http://www.everydayhealth.com/blogs/diagnosis-down-syndrome/orphans-with-down-syndrome](http://www.everydayhealth.com/blogs/diagnosis-down-syndrome/orphans-with-down-syndrome) > [http://www.laurachristianson.com/laura/down-syndrome-adoption-q-a/](http://www.laurachristianson.com/laura/down-syndrome-adoption-q-a/) > [Down Syndrome Adoption Explodes in Popularity](http://www.rainbowkids.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?id=618) Huh. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/95 "2012-06-22T00:23:08Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I think one reason people considering genetic defects to be worth aborting over is because they can, not because it’s a good reason. What if all reasons were on the table, would this one really be the worst? I agree with you about this. Another example: [Someday, it might be possible to prenatally screen children for homosexuality](http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/wellness/pregnancy/story/2011/06/Could-prenatal-DNA-testing-open-Pandoras-box/48285646/1). It’s not hard to imagine that many parents might rationalize aborting a child for being homosexual (perhaps telling themselves that it’s for the kid’s own good because it’s harder being gay than straight in some ways). In some countries, it’s already quite common to abort fetuses just for being female (though most of us in the western world don’t consider being female a defect), so I have no doubt that if people COULD screen out children based on any number of frivolous things they would. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/96 "2012-06-22T00:43:50Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > I agree with you about this. Another example: [Someday, it might be possible to prenatally screen children for homosexuality](http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/wellness/pregnancy/story/2011/06/Could-prenatal-DNA-testing-open-Pandoras-box/48285646/1). It’s not hard to imagine that many parents might rationalize aborting a child for being homosexual (perhaps telling themselves that it’s for the kid’s own good because it’s harder being gay than straight in some ways). > In some countries, it’s already quite common to abort fetuses just for being female (though most of us in the western world don’t consider being female a defect), so I have no doubt that if people COULD screen out children based on any number of frivolous things they would. Yes, thanks, great post. It’s what I’m trying to say - to add perspective. It’s not like Down Syndrome is this horrible disease that makes you an Elephant Man or anything, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/97 "2012-06-22T00:45:02Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Nobody in this thread said anything like that. Let’s not get into a thing about it then. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/98 "2012-06-22T00:53:52Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > \*\*lance strongarm \*\*, have you considered starting an “Ask the parent of a child with Downs Syndrome” thread? Because your positive experience might prove reassuring to parents facing this possibility, or those with high risk pregnancies with qualms about terminating a pregnancy. That’s a great idea. Didn’t think of that. That would be less confrontational. I’m just trying to get people to think about this deeper. I’ll go do that. > [@](#): > > I just gave birth to my first child at 41, and had the results of my amnio revealed chromosome abnormalities, I would have terminated. Had the doctor obscured those test results, I would have sued. Why, after being childless for so long would I consider ending a pregnancy? Because yesterday’s obit page reminded me that if one gives birth to a special needs child in their 40s, one hopes to outlive that child. The mother of a high school boyfriend with no extended family…didn’t. Daniel, a muscular (freakishly strong), hyperactive and easily frustrated man with Down’s is now 47, and his only living relative (brother David) cannot or will not care for him. When we were kids, Daniel would get angry if we didn’t include him on every date and would destroy furniture, break Windows, door facing, dent cars. If Daniel didn’t get what he wanted at every meal, same result. Daniel was incontinent, masturbated when agitated, and shouted expletives learned in public school. Daniel could also be incredibly gentle and affectionate, but there was little to no indication as to when that mood would change. His mother loved him very much, and returned to college to study special education for the sole purpose of advocating for him and others like him in the public school setting. Life with Daniel was chaotic. Now that his advocate and only family member who could properly care for him is gone: Daniel will finish his chaotic life in a home full of strangers. I hear alot of stories like this one. It reflects the fact that many people have experienced completely out of date situations. Daniel can successfully live in a place where there are people who can deal with his problems, with government assistance and an appointed guardian to oversee it. These places exist. There’s no reason Daniel shouldn’t have access to them. And Daniel is an outlier. Most people with DS get MUCH better therapy and early intervention and education and behavior modification at an early age to mitigate these problems these days. We know much more about how to handle them now, by catching them early. People with DS like Daniel are rare now. And again, if a parent thinks they can prevent things like this, they should rethink, because there are many many ways this can happen after birth. Autism, for instance, is turning into an epidemic, and it can’t be screened for before birth. There are many other problems, mental and physical, that can occur after a child is born. It’s a risk no matter what. Just perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/99 "2012-06-22T00:58:46Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Let’s not get into a thing about it then. You brought it up, and that sort of implies you felt that’s how other people here might feel about it. I don’t think that’s fair. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > And again, if a parent thinks they can prevent things like this, they should rethink, because there are many many ways this can happen after birth. There’s no way it can happen after birth. I don’t think you can have a very productive discussion if you just lump Down syndrome in with every other type of thing that can happen to a person. A relatively small number of health problems can be detected before birth, and this is one of them. Parents make very difficult decisions based on that information. Just because you think it’s OK to have an abortion if you discover your child will have Down syndrome doesn’t mean you think you can shield their children from all possible misfortunes. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302/100 "2012-06-22T01:13:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You brought it up, and that sort of implies you felt that’s how other people here might feel about it. I don’t think that’s fair. It’s a matter of interpretation. > [@](#): > > There’s no way it can happen after birth. I don’t think you can have a very productive discussion if you just lump Down syndrome in with every other type of thing that can happen to a person. That’s just it - you can’t UNlump them, because every person is vulnerable to all those things. > [@](#): > > A relatively small number of health problems can be detected before birth, and this is one of them. Parents make very difficult decisions based on that information. Just because you think it’s OK to have an abortion if you discover your child will have Down syndrome doesn’t mean you think you can shield their children from all possible misfortunes. That’s true. It just seems too easy. I just can’t see having hope for a child and then giving up that easily. Again, not judging, just saying that’s how it was for me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/couple-sues-docs-who-said-child-wouldnt-have-down-syndrome/615302.md?page=6)