# Court finds in favor of what we all\* already new \[Black Panther Voter Intimidation from 2008\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 31, 2012, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934 "2012-07-31T07:47:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/1 "2012-07-31T07:47:41Z")
Don’t recall seeing a thread on this yet, so here it is. > [@](#): > > **A federal court in Washington, DC, held last week that political appointees appointed by President Obama did interfere with the Department of Justice’s prosecution of the New Black Panther Party.** From [here.](http://washingtonexaminer.com/federal-court-finds-obama-appointees-interfered-with-new-black-panther-prosecution/article/2503500) So, this pitting is for Eric Holder and his biased compadres masquerading as people working for justice. It’s also for all those who made excuses for them. And if there is anyone who still comes to their defense, this pitting is especially for you. So, suck it. \*Blind, lefty Obama Boot Lickers excluded. Naturally. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/2 "2012-07-31T09:30:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > \*Blind, lefty Obama Boot Lickers excluded. Naturally. “Lefty” people as a rule don’t even _like_ Obama, much less lick his boots. “Bush in Blackface” is an attitude towards Obama you are more likely to get from them than bootlicking. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/3 "2012-07-31T10:19:38Z")
This will go well. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/4 "2012-07-31T10:28:56Z")
I think, in cases like this, it’s generally good to go to the original document, so that’s what i’ve done here. My comments in this post are all based on a reading of the actual [ruling](https://ecf.dcd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2010cv0851-32) (PDF) in this case. I’ve read the whole thing, but for the purpose of this discussion the main stuff is on pages 9 through 14. It seems possible, as far as i can tell, that political appointees did interfere with the DoJ’s prosecution in the New Black Panther Party case. At the very least, evidence provided to Judicial Watch under FOIA proves that political appointees were discussing the subject with one another, with the Acting Assistant Deputy Attorney General for Civil Rights, and with some lower-level DOJ attorneys over email. The problem, though, is that the judge’s decision in this case never says that the political appointees interfered in the disposition of the case, much less that they “improperly interfered,” which is what Judicial Watch was trying to find out. Before getting to what the judge actually said, it is worth noting here that his ruling was not aimed at determining the actual issue of political interference at all. The sole aim of this particular ruling was to determine whether Judicial Watch was (1) eligible, and (2) entitled to attorneys’ fees as a result of their FOIA request and the DOJ’s subsequent release of documents. The judge was _not_ being asked to decide: “Did political appointees improperly interfere in the DOJ’s handling of the New Black Panther Party case?” That doesn’t mean his ruling is irrelevant to the question of interference, however, because in making his decision about whether Judicial Watch was eligible and entitled to attorneys’ fees, the judge necessarily had to evaluate the content of the documents released by the DOJ to determine whether or not they had any public value or benefit. And in doing that, he had to at least consider the DOJ’s and Judicial Watch’s statements about the role of political appointees in the case. The judge notes that the DOJ denies that any of the records “evidenced any political interference,” and that the DOJ also asserts that the records released did not contribute to “the fund of information that citizens may use in making vital political choices.” He notes Judicial Watch’s response, in which JW argues that documents released by the DOJ do, in fact, “provide new evidence that top political appointees at the DOJ were intimately involved in the decision to dismiss the voter intimidation case against the New Black Panther Party for Self Defense (NBPP).” The judge also lists some examples of emails sent from DOJ political appointees about the trial. The material described in the above paragraph appears on pp. 11 and 12 of the opinion. Note that, so far, the judge is essentially summarizing the conflicting views of the DOJ and JW. Near the bottom of page 12, the judge adds some information that comes from the DOJ but that appears to support JW’s assertions. He notes that a Vaughn index (not sure what that is) submitted by the DOJ “revealed that Associate Attorney General Perrelli exchanged several emails with lower-level attorneys at the DOJ regarding the New Black Panther Party case on May 14 and 15, 2009.” The judge also notes that May 15 is the day that the DOJ dismissed its case against three NBPP defendants. At the top of page 13 is where the judge begins to use all of this information in order to formulate his own opinion about the public benefit of the documents brought to light by the FOIA request. This section is worth a more extended quotation: > [@](#): > > The Court finds that the foregoing emails added, at least to some degree, “‘to the fund of > information that citizens may use in making vital political choices.’” Cotton, 63 F.3d at 1120 > (citation omitted). The documents reveal that political appointees within DOJ were conferring > about the status and resolution of the New Black Panther Party case in the days preceding the > DOJ’s dismissal of claims in that case, which would appear to contradict Assistant Attorney > General Perez’s testimony that political leadership was not involved in that decision. Surely the > public has an interest in documents that cast doubt on the accuracy of government officials’ > representations regarding the possible politicization of agency decisionmaking. And the DOJ > has not shown that these particular materials were released prior to this litigation, or that the > information contained therein was already in the public domain. > > \ > > Accordingly, the Court finds that the public benefit factor > weighs in favor of awarding fees to Judicial Watch. So, in his decision the judge notes that the documents released by the DOJ contradict claims made by A.A.G. Perez about the involvement of political appointees. Note, however, that the judge himself never uses the word “interferes” or “interference” to describe what was going on here, and he never reaches his own conclusion about whether agency decisions were politicized. He says that the documents contradict the AAG’s claim that political appointees were not involved in the decision, and that the documents are in the public interest because they “cast doubt on the accuracy of government officials’ representations regarding the possible politicization of agency decisionmaking.” The question, i guess, is whether the involvement of the political appointees in these conversations about the NBPP case, as described above, actually constitutes interference. Even more importantly, in terms of the substantive issues at stake here, does it constitute improper interference, which is what Judicial Watch was trying to find out? The judge never tells us, because that’s not what he’s writing his opinion about. Is “involvement” the same as “interference,” in a case like this? I ask these questions out of genuine interest, because i’m not an expert on exactly where the line is regarding the role of political appointees within a government department like the DOJ. Is the mere fact that political appointees discussed a case like this with DOJ folks in the Civil Rights division, by itself, evidence of political interference? Are political appointees prohibited from talking with agency staff about ongoing cases? Or is there a more rigorous standard required here in order to show improper political interference? The opinion in this case tells us about the existence of correspondence and communications, but it tells us almost nothing about the content of those communications. The only emails quoted in the opinion are pretty innocuous, saying things like: > [@](#): > > I need to discuss this with you tomorrow morning. I’ll send you another email on this shortly. > > If you want to discuss it this evening, please let me know which number to call and when. and > [@](#): > > thanking Rosenbaum for “doing everything you’re doing to make sure that this case is properly resolved.” As i said, i’m not an expert on the ethics of communication by political appointees within the DOJ, but my own general feeling on the matter is that we would need a lot more evidence than was provided in this particular opinion to come to any conclusion about interference, let alone improper interference, by political appointees in this case. Maybe someone with a clearer understanding of what political appointees actually should and should not be doing within an organization like the DOJ can help me out here. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/5 "2012-07-31T10:41:14Z")
I don’t know about y’all, but I’m endlessly fascinated by the political opinions of people who don’t know the difference between “new” and “knew.” I’m sure magellan has much to teach us. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/6 "2012-07-31T10:41:30Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > As i said, i’m not an expert on the ethics of communication by political appointees within the DOJ, but my own general feeling on the matter is that we would need a lot more evidence than was provided in this particular opinion to come to any conclusion about interference, let alone improper interference, by political appointees in this case. Maybe someone with a clearer understanding of what political appointees actually should and should not be doing within an organization like the DOJ can help me out here. Thank you, **mhendo** - that’s much clearer than the few media reports presented. I think you’ve winkled out the main fly in the ointment here, which is that the communication with the AAG’s office did clearly occur and the potential for influence or interference existed. Proving it did or did not happen will prove a much murkier task, despite everyone but the Blind Lefty Obama Bootlickers (BLOBs) already “knowing” the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/7 "2012-07-31T10:44:44Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I don’t know about y’all, but I’m endlessly fascinated by the political opinions of people who don’t know the difference between “new” and “knew.” I’m sure magellan has much to teach us. Meh, it’s a typo. A kindly mod will fix it eventually. I’m more interested in noting that **magellan01** clearly buys his well poison by the barrel at Sam’s Club. Buying in bulk is so much cheaper, but then whatever you don’t use you have to store and it just takes up so much room, so there’s always the temptation to use too much of it in one go. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/8 "2012-07-31T11:12:24Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > The problem, though, is that the judge’s decision in this case never says that the political appointees interfered in the disposition of the case, much less that they “improperly interfered,” which is what Judicial Watch was trying to find out. Thanks for the post. In the article linked to by **magellan01** , the author (a senior editorial writer for a conservative-leaning news outlet, it should be noted) certainly describes it as a finding of “interference,” but the actual quote he included from the judge didn’t use the term—so I feel relatively safe assuming that this is merely another case of the OP latching onto a bit of anti-Obama spin that he likes, pending more conclusive evidence to the contrary. At least this one didn’t come from _WorldNetDaily_, which is… something, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/9 "2012-07-31T11:46:34Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Thanks for the post. In the article linked to by **magellan01** , the author (a senior editorial writer for a conservative-leaning news outlet, it should be noted) certainly describes it as a finding of “interference,” but the actual quote he included from the judge didn’t use the term—so I feel relatively safe assuming that this is merely another case of the OP latching onto a bit of anti-Obama spin that he likes, pending more conclusive evidence to the contrary. > > At least this one didn’t come from _WorldNetDaily_, which is… something, I guess. The key for me is this part: > [@](#): > > The parties subsequently stipulated to the voluntary dismissal of this case with prejudice. ECF No. 24. Currently before the Court is Judicial Watch’s motion for an award of attorneys’ fees and costs. Upon careful consideration of the parties’ submissions,1 the Court concludes for the following reasons that Judicial Watch’s motion must be granted in part and denied in part. Seems to me that this is indeed not dealing with guilt or not, this is only to see if JW has the right to collect fees, nothing more was left. I also notice that this is referring to the Civil Case, not the criminal one, as reported before it was the Bush Administration the ones that came with the idea of not pressing criminal charges, as for the civil case, even before Politifact did notice that the now virtually toothless civil case was under the care of the Obama administration. > **[O'Reilly blames Obama admin. for not pursuing criminal charges in New Black...](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2010/jul/23/bill-oreilly/bill-oreilly-blames-obama-administration-not-pursu/)** > > For several weeks, Fox News pundits have been hammering the Obama administration for its handling of the New Black Panth ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/10 "2012-07-31T12:48:13Z")
I agree with **mhendo** ’s observations. If I had to briefly summarize the judge’s findings, I might say something like: “The judge found that the requested FOIA material contained evidence which could support the proposition that the DOJ interfered, or improperly interfered, with the civil case against the NBP party.” It does not weigh that evidence, nor does it suggest this there is no other evidence available – and correctly so, since the judge wasn’t being asked to consider the question of improper interference, but only the resolution of the various FOIA motions. This ruling is a useful source to rebut anyone anyone who might say, “There’s not one scintilla of evidence in support of the claim that the Obama administration interfered with the DOJ’s decision in re the New Black Panthers.” Beyond that, it’s weak sauce. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/11 "2012-07-31T12:58:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This ruling is a useful source to rebut anyone anyone who might say, “There’s not one scintilla of evidence in support of the claim that the Obama administration interfered with the DOJ’s decision in re the New Black Panthers.” Beyond that, it’s weak sauce. Kudos for going for the facts rather than the zinger, **Bricker**. It doesn’t matter, though- it’s entered into the rightwing noosphere that it did happen. The \*\*magellans \*\*of the world will, from this day onward, claim that the report conclusively proved that Obama interfered in the prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/12 "2012-07-31T13:46:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Beyond that, it’s weak sauce. **magellan01** can make an entire 12 course banquet from such sauce. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/13 "2012-07-31T14:04:05Z")
Just for fun, here are the incriminating e-mails the court quoted in the ruling. First, an e-mail from Deputy Associate Attorney General Sam Hirsch to Associate Attorney General Thomas Perrelli: > [@](#): > > Fw: New Black Panther Party Update,” Hirsch writes: > > Tom, > > I need to discuss this with you tomorrow morning. I’ll send you another email on this shortly. > > If you want to discuss it this evening, please let me know which number to call and when. One from Hirsch to Acting Assistant Deputy Attorney General for Civil Rights in charge of voting rights, Steven Rosenbaum: > [@](#): > > [thanks for] doing everything you’re doing to make sure that this case is properly resolved Given this wealth of incriminating information, I don’t see how any of us can possibly conclude that Obama is not a member of the New Black Panther Party. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/14 "2012-07-31T15:45:12Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I’m sure magellan has much to teach us. I dunno about that, I’m pretty sure his world travels are limited to such places as the still-racist parts of the deep south. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/15 "2012-07-31T15:47:40Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Meh, it’s a typo. A kindly mod will fix it eventually… We gnu that. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/16 "2012-07-31T16:11:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Given this wealth of incriminating information, I don’t see how any of us can possibly conclude that Obama is not a member of the New Black Panther Party. “When all this occurred, was Obama _new_? That is, a new President?” “Well, yes.” “And would you say that he is also _black_?” “Well… biracial, but yes, you could say he’s black.” “And is the President a member of a political _party_, yes or no?” “Of course.” “Then you admit the evidence is overwhelming. I rest my case.” ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/17 "2012-07-31T16:16:14Z")
Wait, you mean Magellan was wrong about something? ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/18 "2012-07-31T16:24:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I agree with **mhendo** ’s observations. If I had to briefly summarize the judge’s findings, I might say something like: “The judge found that the requested FOIA material contained evidence which could support the proposition that the DOJ interfered, or improperly interfered, with the civil case against the NBP party.” > > It does not weigh that evidence, nor does it suggest this there is no other evidence available – and correctly so, since the judge wasn’t being asked to consider the question of improper interference, but only the resolution of the various FOIA motions. > > This ruling is a useful source to rebut anyone anyone who might say, “There’s not one scintilla of evidence in support of the claim that the Obama administration interfered with the DOJ’s decision in re the New Black Panthers.” Beyond that, it’s weak sauce. Boy, if we didn’t all already know **Bricker** was a lefty Obama bootlicker, I guess this would have been a surprising post. [/snark] ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/19 "2012-07-31T16:59:49Z")
It’s amazing - the words are all English, and I read English pretty well, but it doesn’t make any sense to me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934/20 "2012-07-31T17:04:17Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > It’s amazing - the words are all English, and I read English pretty well, but it doesn’t make any sense to me. 🙂 But you ARE Canadian, and Albertan at that, so the rest of us make allowances. 😛 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-finds-in-favor-of-what-we-all-already-new-black-panther-voter-intimidation-from-2008/629934.md?page=2)