# Court rules that even on a bicycle, it's reckless driving. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 22, 2014, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724 "2014-07-22T07:54:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/61 "2014-07-24T16:59:35Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > And why is this OK? Oh its not OK. I don’t think he implied it was. However it is amusing to see some drivers going ballistic over multiple cyclists doing one one single driver can do every single day. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/62 "2014-07-24T17:01:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, it can be scary to be surrounded by a group of cyclists, and you can’t move. > > They also break traffic laws with impunity, urinate in public, drink and drive, walk en masse into convenience stores and walk out with unpaid merchandise, and play music loud. Here are a few comments from Yelp on the San Jose Bike Party- which is generally recognized as better behaved that Critical Mass. > > : See, this is what I was talking about: CM is to bike-haters what “But, Clinton was impeached!!!” is to neo-cons. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/63 "2014-07-24T17:25:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, it can be scary to be surrounded by a group of cyclists, and you can’t move. Yeah, terrifying, to be sitting inside a two-ton steel box amidst a bunch of cyclists. I guess that is why, on a couple of random occasions (not related to any group ride) I have had fearful motorists fling their beer cans at me while I was just riding. And the cowering pickup truck driver that tried to make a right turn on top of me while I was walking my bike across an intersection (with the light). Oh such fear that bicyclists instill in the poor, vulnerable motorists. > [@](#): > > … the San Jose Bike Party- which is generally recognized as better behaved that Critical Mass. I am doubting that. Critical Mass is just a ride, not a wild party, and it usually does not carry on all that late. ---
**Author:** ![6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/e19adc/32.png) [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/64 "2014-07-24T23:46:50Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > So the best solution you can come up with is to take action that discourages people from cycling, gives the cyclist zero benefits in return, adds more administration to the government, costs more, and does little to nothing. Great. Yeah. Because car registration discourages people from driving, gives the driver zero benefits in return, adds more administration (for) the government, costs more and does little to nothing (except maintain roads etc. etc. that cyclists also use.) Not sure how you can really say “costs more” since cyclists pay nothing to use the roads. At least the necessity of a driver’s licence proves that at least the person in charge of the vehicle (whether 4-wheeled or 2) has passed a test on road rules - with cyclists, who knows, really, whether they know them or not? > [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Poster #3 reacts the same way and also wants to tag cyclists in some manner. Then demonstrates ignorance of cyclists after I confront him. It’s a difficult debate to maintain, since we are both in completely different countries. So the only real ‘ignorance’ here is you referring to me as ‘him.’ ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/65 "2014-07-25T00:08:54Z")
> [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](#): > > Not sure how you can really say “costs more” since cyclists pay nothing to use the roads. I’m just going to pick on this one line that I hear over and over. I cycle a lot. It’s how I commute, it’s my recreation and my exercise. I participate in organized rides and races. I have a lot of friends that are fairly serious cyclists. Every single one of them owns a motorized vehicle of some sort and purchases licences, vehicle registration, gas, etc. I don’t know of one that does not. Seriously, how many cyclists do you know (not counting underage folks) that do not have a vehicle and license? I know they exist but they are in the minority. So, the majority pay to use the roads. And how much wear and tear does a cycle do to the road? If you want to complain about vehicles not paying their way, why don’t you pick on farm vehicles? Tractors going 10 down the highway with tax-free diesel and I guarantee they damage the roads and shoulders. ---
**Author:** ![6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/e19adc/32.png) [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/66 "2014-07-25T00:31:22Z")
I hear ya, **wguy123**. I too, have a number of cyclist friends - and they all cycle because they don’t own cars, and never have done. Nor do they have licences. So yes, we agree that they exist: that they’re the minority I think is irrelevant - they are all road users. I’m not ‘complaining’ about them not paying their way and I have yet to see farm vehicles weaving through suburban traffic every morning - my issue is that cyclists expect drivers to be completely accountable in their use of public roads, while they (the cyclists) are not. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/67 "2014-07-25T01:02:11Z")
> [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](#): > > Yeah. Because car registration discourages people from driving, gives the driver zero benefits in return, adds more administration (for) the government, costs more and does little to nothing (except maintain roads etc. etc. that cyclists also use.) Driver’s licenses are in existence because cars can kill so very, very easily. Even with the licensing system in place the numbers of killed and injured are staggering. By comparison a cyclist licensing system is useless, and provides no benefits. > [@](#): > > Not sure how you can really say “costs more” since cyclists pay nothing to use the roads. Utter dreck and nonsense from drivers. In most states in the USA (and probably much around the world) gas taxes and auto fees pay for a small portion of the roads. The rest? It is paid from the general fund. Guess who pays taxes into the general fund? Taxpayers - like me. So don’t say any cyclists are paying nothing to use the roads. If anything we are overpaying for what we use and the wear we cause. > [@](#): > > At least the necessity of a driver’s licence proves that at least the person in charge of the vehicle (whether 4-wheeled or 2) has passed a test on road rules - with cyclists, who knows, really, whether they know them or not? And yet while drivers kill tens of thousands each year, cyclist kill a handful at their worst. So, the logic becomes we crack down on the one that causes fewer issues. > [@](#): > > It’s a difficult debate to maintain, since we are both in completely different countries. So the only real ‘ignorance’ here is you referring to me as ‘him.’ You are the one who decided to comment on a thread that covered a US legal issue and ended up showing your serious anti-bike prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/e19adc/32.png) [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/68 "2014-07-25T01:22:42Z")
Good grief. My “…serious ani-bike prejudices” extend only to wanting road using cyclists to be accountable. They are not as involved is as many accidents as they cause. If you’re so convinced, **Mr. Miskatonic** , that cyclists are not hazardous on our roads, why such outrage that they be identifiable? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/69 "2014-07-25T01:34:11Z")
> [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](#): > > Not sure how you can really say “costs more” since cyclists pay nothing to use the roads. > > It’s a difficult debate to maintain, since we are both in completely different countries. Maybe. Maybe not. A web search will find you all manner of studies and opinions that place the proper price for motor fuel – if you remove all the subsidies and make motorists pay for what they use – somewhere between three and nine times what we pay in the US. In UK, they pay about the equivalent of $[8.us/gal.us](http://8.us/gal.us) for gasoline, which is close to right but still not quite there. $10/gal (US) would realistically be a bargain. So, even if you live in Denmark, a bike-friendly country, the full-time cyclists, with their contributions to the tax base, are helping keep you, the motorist, on the road. So, pop in another CD and make the best of your drive, instead of shortening your life with needless apoplexy. ---
**Author:** ![6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/e19adc/32.png) [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/70 "2014-07-25T01:55:00Z")
I think your ‘needless apoplexy’ accusation is a little misdirected, **eschereal**. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/71 "2014-07-25T02:19:47Z")
> [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](#): > > I hear ya, **wguy123**. I too, have a number of cyclist friends - and they all cycle because they don’t own cars, and never have done. Nor do they have licences. So yes, we agree that they exist: that they’re the minority I think is irrelevant - they are all road users. > > I’m not ‘complaining’ about them not paying their way That funny, I could swear you just used alleged cyclist lack of payment into the road system as a reason for them to not complain ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/72 "2014-07-25T02:22:46Z")
> [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](#): > > Good grief. My “…serious ani-bike prejudices” extend only to wanting road using cyclists to be accountable. They are not as involved is as many accidents as they cause. Bullshit. Prove that last statement or withdraw it. The ‘bikes cause accidents’ is a line from complete ignorance. > [@](#): > > If you’re so convinced, **Mr. Miskatonic** , that cyclists are not hazardous on our roads, why such outrage that they be identifiable? I find it is better to put our resources towards greater issues on the roadways rather than try to find ways to limit and restrict cycling. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/73 "2014-07-25T02:34:44Z")
I’ve had bottles thrown at me. (That’s only attempted murder) Been yelled at to get on the correct side of the road (While on the correct side) etc… ---
**Author:** ![6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/e19adc/32.png) [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/74 "2014-07-25T03:32:16Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Bullshit. Prove that last statement or withdraw it. WTF? If your aggressive attitude here is indicative of your approach to cycling on the road, then maybe you’re making one of the very points you’re trying desperately to avoid. > [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > The ‘bikes cause accidents’ is a line from complete ignorance. Yeah, not. I’ve witnessed them, and experienced them. > [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > I find it is better to put our resources towards greater issues on the roadways rather than try to find ways to limit and restrict cycling. Roadways, by their sheer nature and the increasing volume of users, will always have issues - I thought we were discussing but one, here. What’s your solution? Good that you throw punches at everything from that particular post, and yet completely ignore my question to you about why all the outrage at being identifiable. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/75 "2014-07-25T03:48:19Z")
> [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](#): > > WTF? > If your aggressive attitude here is indicative of your approach to cycling on the road, then maybe you’re making one of the very points you’re trying desperately to avoid. Oh stop whining. You’ve pulled every card in the deck of cyclist oppression and get snippy when I call you on it. > [@](#): > > Yeah, not. I’ve witnessed them, and experienced them. Anecdotes are not data. > [@](#): > > Roadways, by their sheer nature and the increasing volume of users, will always have issues - I thought we were discussing but one, here. What’s your solution? My solution? Better regulation and enforcement on the things on the road that are killing people. Not trying to oppress a group of road users based on nothing but prejudices and bigotry > [@](#): > > Good that you throw punches at everything from that particular post, and yet completely ignore my question to you about why all the outrage at being identifiable. As I said, it is a waste of resources, has little to no benefit for drivers, and no benefit to cyclists. Cyclist registration is never a way to solve problems. It is purely introduced a method to suppress cyclists and add needless bureaucracy. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/76 "2014-07-25T04:01:20Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > As I said, it is a waste of resources, has little to no benefit for drivers, and no benefit to cyclists. > > Cyclist registration is never a way to solve problems. It is purely introduced a method to suppress cyclists and add needless bureaucracy. If we got rid of the subsidies and motor fuel was the ten-to-twelve bucks a gallon that it ought to be, registering cyclists might make some sense. It would not really benefit them, but licenses and plates do not really _benefit_ motorists, for the most part (except when there is serious mischief). ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/77 "2014-07-25T04:16:54Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > If we got rid of the subsidies and motor fuel was the ten-to-twelve bucks a gallon that it ought to be, registering cyclists might make some sense. It would not really benefit them, but licenses and plates do not really _benefit_ motorists, for the most part (except when there is serious mischief). No they don’t and the litany of problems with registration is endless 1. It adds a layer of bureaucracy to the DMV 2. It wouldn’t come close to paying for itself 3. It would be inherently unfair cost-wise to cyclists no matter what you based it on (road wear, gas consumption, etc.) 4. It actively discourages cycling. “I’d love to take a ride - but that new registration law…I just haven’t had to time during the week to do it!” 5. It punishes the poor who use bicycles as their primary registration 6. It turns regular riders who haven’t the time or resources to register into instant criminals 7. Are you seriously going to drag your 8 year old to a DMV to register to ride with you on some quiet suburban roads? 8. Oh yes, the ‘ID tag’. Which bike haters seem to magically think can go anywhere and be read from miles away…somehow…despite not being able to be 1/8th the size of a car plate 9. Oh, and where is that plate going to be? On my seat tube? Really? The place where my red safety light goes as well as a seat bag or a fender? You want me to give of the safety of those items? 10. The only asshole cyclists who might be affected by this will probably just ride with registering. It won’t stop them one bit 11. Sure, there are asshole cyclists. There are also asshole drivers. Look how well license & registration worked to keep _them_ off the roads. etc. etc. etc. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/78 "2014-07-25T04:32:48Z")
Well I dont know where you live but many areas have designated bicycle “roads” and pathways so I have no problem with bicyclists having to be licensed when they use these. Also look at the costs of a bicycle and the expensive riding gear. I think they can afford it. Plus if they can afford to do critical mass rides like they do in California which, sorry to say, is NOT this nice friendly ride but a bunch of young punks looking for an excuse to cause trouble, they can afford to be licensed. Pet peeve of mine - the more expensive the bike, the bigger the asshole riding it is. We have a big problem in our area of these jerks riding full speed in areas crowded with walkers, joggers, and familys pushing kids in strollers. I wonder if he can ride faster than I can pull my paintball gun? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/79 "2014-07-25T09:16:02Z")
Hey Mr. Miskatonic. I’m warming up in the bullpen. Ya ready? ---
**Author:** ![6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/e19adc/32.png) [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724/80 "2014-07-25T10:19:42Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Oh stop whining. You’ve pulled every card in the deck of cyclist oppression and get snippy when I call you on it. “…cyclist oppression…”? Who do you think ‘your people’ are? > [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Anecdotes are not data. My experiences are not data, they’re real life. > [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > My solution? Better regulation and enforcement on the things on the road that are killing people. Not trying to oppress a group of road users based on nothing but prejudices and bigotry And I guess your ever-nebulous “better regulation” doesn’t “add a layer to the bureaucracy of the DMV.” Or involve cyclists. Just everything _around_ them. More specifics on the “prejudices and bigotry” appreciated - though I know you hate not being able to just make up your own rules about what constitutes civilised discourse. I’m willing to share this road of communication we’ve embarked upon in a much less aggressive way than you do, but hey, it’s a public thoroughfare here. I’m prepared to consider it cyclist’s adrenalin. Or that someone threw a beer can at you. Oh, not plates for identification. A fitted, glow-in-the-dark jersey with your personal registered, road-using cyclist number on it. I don’t give a fuck whose bike your riding - I want to be able identify you, the arsehole idiot. > [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > As I said, it is a waste of resources, has little to no benefit for drivers, and no benefit to cyclists. > > Cyclist registration is never a way to solve problems. It is purely introduced a method to suppress cyclists and add needless bureaucracy. Of what bullshit “method to suppress” do you speak? I’m suppressed by things other than my car rego. And you’re missing the point that most bureaucracy _is_ needless. Why so precious? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-rules-that-even-on-a-bicycle-its-reckless-driving/693724.md?page=5)