You don’t have to be that old for it to have made an impression. I’m 34, and my first cousin (who is, admittedly, quite a bit older than I) had polio when he was 8. He’s been in a wheelchair since then and has started to decline very fast in the last few months.
You bet your sweet pink heinie my kid gets his shots.
The nice thing about my sister moving to Ireland was that they forced her to get all of her kids inoculated. I had tried for years to convince her that she needed to do that (and this series of studies isn’t going to convince her either), but completely in vain…however, she had to choose between her irrational prejudices on this subject and her desire to move to Ireland.
-XT
Here’s a Danish study, covering every child born in Denmark from 1991 to 1998, roughly 550K in all. (Say what you want about national health care systems, but they make for damn nice comprehensive statistics.)
If I read the numbers correctly, the relative risk for autism in children with the MMR vaccine is computed to be 0.92, which would (if I recall my high-school statistics lesson) actually indicate a lower risk of autism. (I’m being silly, of course, the numbers do not support that conclusion and the study makes no such claim.)
Here’s a link that was given on this very message board in another thread, about a Finnish study that examined the medical records of 1.8 million people.
That, and the Danish study above, should (in a rational world) shut her up, but obviously neither you or nor I should hold our breath on that.
I forget who said it but the statement was apt:
“You cannot reason someone out of a position they have not been reasoned into.”
The anti-vaxxers have their answer. Nothing but nothing will convince them that answer isn’t somehow in some manner vaccines.
The Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia sponsors the Vaccine Education Center which has a nice concise summary of the data.
This brief article also gives some of the cites.
The short version is that large studies have been done in Finland, Denmark, the United States Canada,and England and all have shown no increased risk of autism with the MMR. Japan stopped using the MMR in 1993, switching over to single antigen vaccines - the result?
The only thing that would convince many of the anti-vaxxers is Oprah saying she was wrong to give the crazies a stage and saying that she was sorry. 
These people make me sick-I have a few examples:
My grandmother had two older brothers I only learned about a few years ago-Uncle Johnny died of whooping cough when he was three, and Uncle Karl when he was about six or seven-he stepped on a rusty nail and caught tetanus. I’m sure my great-grandmother would have had a few words with the anti-vaxers. And two great-uncles I never knew.
One of my professors from college had caught polio as an adult. It was the same year Dr. Salk discovered and put out the vaccine-but they were only inoculating children the first year. I heard she died a few years back.
And probably the one that still made my stomach turn-our college had a large international exchange program. Many of my classmates came from Rwanda. One walked with a long pole, because his leg was all twisted up-from polio. He was the same age as I am-which would have been 21 at the time.
I’d love to strap these people down and show them pictures of people who were affected by these diseases-polio, smallpox, etc. (Any other diseases that left visable signs you could show these asshats?)
First, as a non-vaccinating individual (and parent), enough with the stereotype of the ignorant, stupid, lazy, selfish, crazy, conspiracy-theory fueled “anti-vaxer”. I know it’s fun (and like any stereotype, often true) but give me a frickin’ break. :rolleyes:
I am a college educated, intelligent, socially conscious person who spent the last 16 yrs researching and following this issue and concluded a long time ago that there is much to be resolved wrt vaccines and made an educated decision not to participate (or offer my children up as subjects) in this great experiment. (now, proceed, or rather, continue, with the attacks, both personal and otherwise… :mad:)
I don’t stereotype those who vaccinate (as some do, as “sheep” or “ignorant”, etc…) since I know there are many variables to this decision and I respect the right of all to choose. I learned long ago that I can seldom expect the same degree of respect or courtesy from most. Oh well.
As for the issue of autism, here is my take, based on the best evidence to date (not an esp. popular take with either the “antis” or the “pros” ime :p):
It is a genetic condition, no doubt. It runs in families. Not always, but mostly. That is pretty firmly established.
But it can also be triggered or influenced by environmental factors/exposures, including vaccines. That is something that is being studied and proven more and more.
One of the latest and most plausible (having some very sound research to back it up) theories is that autistic children do not excrete certain heavy metals and other toxins as efficiently as their non-autistic peers. So studies done on “normal” children to measure how much mercury/thimerosal, for instance, is excreted cannot be applied to autistic children overall. And it is a plausible explanation for why tests on the hair, urine and blood of austic children so often show very low or no levels of such heavy metals despite documented exposures of a fairly high level and as opposed to their non-autistic peers with similar exposure levels.
I don’t blame vaccines for autism (and it was never a concern when making my decision for my own children…my initial concern was a severe reaction (7 hrs of high-pitched screaming and seizures and severe local reaction followed by 12 hrs or unresponsive sleep) my 2 mth old son had to the pertussis vaccine which got me started researching, and that research piqued my intererest in the subject in general and I continued it)
But I DO think that for children with a predisposition to autism, vaccines can be the straw that broke the camel’s back, so to speak, since they tend to hold onto much more of the exposures they encounter from all sources instead of eliminating them rapidly, allowing these toxins to cause damage to the nervous and other systems.
Sort of in the way diabetes (type 2) definately has a genetic component but can be activated and/or aggravated by environmental factors (dietary, lack of exercise). Many examples of this sort of interplay between genes and environment.
The thimerosol that used to be in some vaccines and the thimerosol which is still in most doses of the flu vaccine (advised for pregnant women and infants and young children and with enough to nearly replace all that was eliminated from other vaccines, plus it is administered at the stages MOST vulnerable to mercury damage), not to mention the other components. (Wakefield has been pretty well dragged through the mud, but his theory that the measles live virus vaccine (or wild virus, ftm) can permeate the gut of autistic children and reak havoc is a plausible one, given that there is evidence of gut/immune issues with the autistic. )
So I don’t second-guess those who observed their child “become” autistic immediately following a vaccine, nor do I accept that it was the vaccine alone which caused the condition.
Ultimately, ideally, we would test all newborns genetically and be able to know in advance which are predisposed to adverse reactions from vaccines and develop specialized plans for them. As it is, we give vaccines so early, so universally, and so often, it is often difficult to separate nature from nurture.
So… you spent 16 years researching this and came to the wrong conclusion.
Cite, please. Preferably more than one.
Again, cite please.
Except thimerosal hasn’t been in the childhood vaccinations for decades now.
I do. The study on which that conclusion was based was faked. Subsequent studies have found no connection.
Except, of course, before we gave vaccines “so early, so universally, and so often” tens of thousands of children died every year from diseases easily prevented by vaccines.
Just wanted to add that as much as I enjoy this community, I somehow know that my post will only result in a flurry of condescention and personal attacks (with a chance of complete rebuttal lacking any substantiating evidence :rolleyes:) and it sort of sucks.
Come ON, I am UP for debate, any day (well, my son tends to monopolize the computer, as he is taking multiple AP courses this yr, but when I get the chance)
All I ask is some basic degree of mutual respect and civil discourse and presentation of evidence/data for us to have a go at. Seems in very short supply here.
Well, several other posters in posts #43, 44 and 46 have “presented evidence/data” in the form of links to studies that back up their assertions.
Broomstick has now asked you for cites for “presentation of evidence/data” that back up your assertions.
There is nothing disrespectful or uncivil about asking for cites in Great Debates, and I can assure you that debaters defending controversial fringe positions* will not be taken seriously without cites.
*“Fringe” in this context is meant to imply positions unsupported by or in conflict with the findings of mainstream science, not as a pejorative accusation of general wackitude or stupidity. Plenty of sane, educated, intelligent people hold positions on various subjects that are not scientifically supported, and it looks as though you may be one of them.
Sorry it took me so long to get back (real life obligations, darn them!:smack::D)
I have no issue with a demand for cites, it is the attitude that pisses me right off. :mad:
Anyway, for what it’s worth, here is what I managed to hobble together in my very spare “spare time”.
1: Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 2005 Nov;73(5):379-84. Links
Increased excretion of a lipid peroxidation biomarker in autism.
Ming X, Stein TP, Brimacombe M, Johnson WG, Lambert GH, Wagner GC.
Department of Neurosciences, UMDNJ-New Jersey Medical School, Newark, 07103, USA. mingxu@umdnj.edu
It is thought that autism could result from an interaction between genetic and environmental factors with oxidative stress as a potential mechanism linking the two. One genetic factor may be altered oxidative-reductive capacity. This study tested the hypothesis that children with autism have increased oxidative stress. We evaluated children with autism for the presence of two oxidative stress biomarkers. Urinary excretion of 8-hydroxy-2-deoxyguanosine (8-OHdG) and 8-isoprostane-F2alpha (8-iso-PGF2alpha) were determined in 33 children with autism and 29 healthy controls. 8-iso-PGF2alpha levels were significantly higher in children with autism. The isoprostane levels in autistic subjects were variable with a bimodal distribution. The majority of autistic subjects showed a moderate increase in isoprostane levels while a smaller group of autistic children showed dramatic increases in their isoprostane levels. There was a trend of an increase in 8-OHdG levels in children with autism but it did not reach statistical significance. There was no significant correlation between the levels of the biomarkers and vitamin intake, dietary supplements, medicine, medical disorders, or history of regression. These results suggest that the lipid peroxidation biomarker is increased in this cohort of autistic children, especially in the subgroup of autistic children.
PMID: 16081262 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
A Case-Control Study of Mercury
Burden in Children with Autistic
Spectrum Disorders
Jeff Bradstreet, M.D.
DavidA. Geier, B.A.
Jerold J. Kartzinel, M.D.
James B.Adams, Ph.D.
MarkR. Geier, M.D., Ph.D.
This study compares mercury excretion after a three-day
treatment with an oral chelating agent, meso-2,3-
dimercaptosuccinic acid (DMSA), in children with autistic spectrum
disorders and a matched control population. Overall, urinary
mercury concentrations were significantly higher in 221 children
with autistic spectrum disorders than in 18 normal controls
(Relative Increase (RI)=3.15; P < 0.0002). Additionally, vaccinated
cases showed a significantly higher urinary mercury concentration
than did vaccinated controls (RI=5.94; P < 0.005). Similar urinary
mercury concentrations were observed among matched vaccinated
and unvaccinated controls, and no association was found
between urinary cadmium or lead concentrations and autistic
spectrum disorders.
The observed urinary concentrations of mercury could
plausibly have resulted from thimerosal in childhood vaccines,
although other environmental sources and thimerosal in Rh (D)
immune globulin administered to mothers may be contributory.
Regardless of the mechanism by which children with autistic
spectrum disorders have high urinary mercury concentrations, the
DMSA treatment described in this study might be useful to diagnose their present burden of mercury…
Moreover, our findings appear to confirm previously published
epidemiologic evidence showing a direct association between
increasing mercury from thimerosal-containing childhood
vaccines and neurodevelopment disorders in children. These
studies showed that there was a two to sixfold, statistically
significant increased incidence of neurodevelopment disorders
following an additional 75-100 mcg dosage of mercury from
thimerosal-containing childhood vaccines in comparison to
thimerosal-free childhood vaccines. These studies showed doseresponse
curves demonstrating a close, statistically significant
correlation between increasing mercury doses from childhood
vaccines and childhood neurodevelopment disorders."
(a blog, but it offers a good overview of the ongoing debate, including cites of studies, so I include it)
re: From The Lancet 2002:
Mercury concentrations and metabolism in infants receiving vaccines containing thiomersal: a descriptive study.
Pichichero ME, Cernichiari E, Lopreiato J, Treanor J.
Department of Microbiology/Immunology, University of Rochester, Rochester, New York, NY, USA. michael_pichichero@urmc.rochester.edu
"Blaxil and Haley’s submission to Pediatrics:
Infant stool eliminates vaccinal mercury slowly suggesting high retention in tissue
To the editor,
In a study in The Lancet, Pichichero et al 1 argued that ethylmercury administered to infants through vaccines is eliminated rapidly from the blood and effectively excreted in stool. Our analysis of this data, combined with a more recent analysis2 of mercury excretion in baby hair suggests a more worrisome interpretation, one that offers support for the hypothesis3 linking early mercury exposures with autism.
Our calculations suggest that Pichichero et al. overstated the significance of their excretion findings. Although their data support a rapid rate of ethylmercury elimination from blood, instead of similarly rapid stool elimination, their findings demonstrate slow stool excretion in many infants, suggesting that significant amounts of ethylmercury from vaccines may be retained in infant tissue. …Blaxil and Haley’s submission to Pediatrics:
Infant stool eliminates vaccinal mercury slowly suggesting high retention in tissue
To the editor,
In a study in The Lancet, Pichichero et al 1 argued that ethylmercury administered to infants through vaccines is eliminated rapidly from the blood and effectively excreted in stool. Our analysis of this data, combined with a more recent analysis2 of mercury excretion in baby hair suggests a more worrisome interpretation, one that offers support for the hypothesis3 linking early mercury exposures with autism.
Our calculations suggest that Pichichero et al. overstated the significance of their excretion findings. Although their data support a rapid rate of ethylmercury elimination from blood, instead of similarly rapid stool elimination, their findings demonstrate slow stool excretion in many infants, suggesting that significant amounts of ethylmercury from vaccines may be retained in infant tissue. "
A newly published study of Texas school district data and industrial mercury-release data, conducted by researchers at The University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio, indeed shows a statistically significant link between pounds of industrial release of mercury and increased autism rates. It also shows—for the first time in scientific literature—a statistically significant association between autism risk and distance from the mercury source.
MY NOTE: Please note that mercury/thimersol has NOT been eliminated from childhood vaccines since the recent flu vaccine has served to replace most of what was eliminated from the previous schedule…if pregnant women receive this vaccine as recommended, and if infants and children receive it likewise, the odds are that they will get doses containing thimerosol and those doses are administered during fetal development, infancy, and early childhood, the most vulnerable times for mercury damage. The removal of thimerosol from childhood vaccines has oft been cited, but it has not actually happened…it was immediately replaced with thimerosol from a new recommended vaccine delivered at even more vulnerable ages. Were I a conspiracy theorist, I would conclude the timing could not have been more perfectly contrived to confound the autism statistics post “thimerosol removal”, since the worst case scenario would be eliminating thimerosol and seeing a dramatic decrease in autism as a result. But I hesitate to ascribe to conspiracy that which can be easily explained by simple ignorance/coincidence.
Geez, another thing about this board…I tire lately of being tasked to provide evidence of the obvious (as in, anyone halfway informed/educated on the issue would not demand cites but jump right into the debate, not needing to be informed of the basics first) and when I DO provide citations in support of my comments, they tend to be ignored. Not challenged with opposing citations or logically questioned but never acknowledged or referenced in the ensuing attacks which tend to be emotional and personal in nature. (and almost always from those claiming to be “Science Gods of the Universe” insert bowing icon here :rolleyes:)
But yet again, I gladly offer supporting citations, for any who might be interested. FTR, the bulk of my research is not handy at the moment, being stored and/or in a non-compatable format, so when tasked, I do a simple search and pull up the relevant information. Try it sometime. Do some basic research and get back to me.
As for the number of deaths from "VPD"s prior to vaccines, I did an article on that comparing incidence, living conditions, nutrition, etc…short summary is that serious complications and deaths from these illnesses had declined by 80 to 95% BEFORE vaccines due to improved conditions and treatments. Incidence was reduced by vaccines, but given the tendency of vaccine immunity to wane, the reductions in incidence vaccines can claim might not be such a great thing, long term.
Do you know that polio has a risk of serious complications of about 1%? And that the live polio vaccine was discontinued because it carried a higher risk than the disease itself? And that the last US polio epidemic is strongly linked to factors other than the cyclical nature of the polio virus, such as the consumption of refined sugar, the decline of breastfeeding, and exposure to pesticides and other environmental toxins? And that it is debatable whether allowing infants/young children to be exposed to polio and gain natural immunity is preferable to mass vaccination? Of course you don’t. I know; “cites, please”. sigh.
Oh, I could give them, but so much more fun to debate or discuss with someone who has already caught up. Happy fucking V-day. If you have someone anywhere near your wavelength to talk with, count yourself blessed.
You hold a minority viewpoint. Sorry about that. You made claims, it is up to you to support those claims.
I’m not sure what, if any connection there is to vaccines here…
Did they control for other significant sources such as fish consumption and/or proximity to a coal burning power plant, two other sources of environmental mercury and both typically more commonly encountered than vaccines?
Also, with the removal of thimerosal from most childhood vaccines that would seem to eliminate this concern. Yet there are parents who refuse all vaccines and not just those containing thimerosal.
OK… “industrial mercury-release” is NOT vaccines, though. Seems to me that the time and energy of anti-vax parents would be better spent on lobbying for stricter emission controls.
Even if, for the sake of argument, we say thimerosal is Bad For You and Baby, that doesn’t account for the refusal of anti-vax parent to vaccinate with thimerosal-free vaccines, does it? I assume you don’t vaccinate your children against flu because of this concern, but what about all those other childhood vaccines? Yes, if you have a child with a particularly bad reaction to a particular vaccine that can be a legitimate reason to not vaccinate, but not necessarily to eliminate all other vaccines, or to leave your other children unvaccinated, too. So… what did you, as a parent, do?
Also, if you refuse to vaccinate I hope you will be understanding when I suggest that perhaps unvaccinated people should be barred from certain types of employment to prevent them from being disease vectors. Therefore, unvaccinated people should be barred from the teaching professions, food preparation, medical careers, and any job that involves extensive public contact such as retail sales. It is unfortunate that this will make employment extremely difficult for them, but if you are free to choose to leave your children unvaccinated then we are also free to be protected from the consequences of your decision. When your children are 18 they will have the option to make their own decision.
Mind you, I do sympathize with people who have bad vaccine reactions, I’ve had one myself. Which is why I don’t get those shots - but I insist on receiving all the others. Indeed my present employer refused to allow me certain duties on the job until I provided proof of a recent tetanus shot, which I then went out and got.
You have the dissenting opinion, you must support it. It is “obvious” to you only because you have, supposedly, engaged in 16 years of research. This is not obvious to people who are new to the debate.
I’m not ignoring them, am I?
If your knee jerks any harder you will injure your forehead. Try not to stir the emotional pot before anyone else does.
So, um, smallpox was eliminated through better sanitation? Nope - through vaccination. Despite the fact that the smallpox vaccination had the highest complication and mortality rate of all the childhood vaccines at the time it was routinely administered.
You do have a point about the waxing of immune response over time. In the past, vaccinated people continued to come into contact with ill people, and that exposure helped to keep their immune response robust. Now, with many of the diseases that we vaccinate against so uncommon this inadvertent immune boosting no longer occurs, and there is an idea floating around that adults may now require booster shots, too - particularly those in professions I mentioned, such as medical care. Pertussis is of significant concern, as previously vaccinated adults whose immunity has faded are notably vulnerable and it would be a damn shame for doctors/nurses/etc to be inadvertently spreading it to vulnerable patients. The end result of that, however, would be more vaccinations, not fewer.
Yes, improved public health resulted in a reduction of things like polio, cholera, and other big killers. That doesn’t make vaccination worthless, particularly in the case of polio. For example, swimming used to be considered an extremely risky activity in the days of polio epidemics (it can be spread by contaminated water) but after kids were routinely vaccinated public swimming areas became much more popular. I suppose we could stop polio vaccinations and ban public beaches, but is that really what you want to do?
Actually, closer to three if you count the meningitis complications along with the paralytic ones.
Only in areas where the wild polio virus has been eradicated. In places where polio still exists in the environment the live vaccine may still be preferred due to ease of administration and fewer complications than the disease itself.
Back in the days when sanitation was nearly non-existent and virtually everyone was exposed to polio as a very young infant that might have been arguably true, however, that improved sanitation you brought up also resulted in people catching the disease much later than as an infant, when the disease has a significantly higher complication rate, it being one of those diseases that tends to be worse the later in life you catch it. I suppose we could go back to the dark ages and roll our children in filth as babies, but there were negatives to that approach as well.
Of course, since in many areas wild polio has been eradicated there is no reservoir to expose infants to, leaving only vulnerable adults.
Same to you. You know, you might get a better response if you didn’t enter the debate with a chip the size of Minneapolis already perched on your shoulder.
The last US polio epidemic was strongly linked to consumption of refined sugar?
Put me down for, “don’t fucking help start epidemics” :rolleyes: and maybe then I’ll respect your POV.
Until then I reserve the right to hold in vast contempt those who would ignore science and history and directly endanger our community from infectious diseases.
BTW Mark Geier is not a reputable source on anything.
Citing him as a source does not bolster one’s credibility but merely reveals one to have been reading the anti-vax websites.
AIUI, another benefit of the live vaccine is that it can be passed to others, resulting in effectively immunizing more than just the direct recipient. That’s a downside if there is no wild polio and someone with a compromised immune system catches it, but if wild polio exists, better to get the weakened version.
You know what they’ve just discovered has a dectable amount of mercury in it? It’s something that most children are exposed to far more often than when they get vaccinated… many children get multiple exposures every single day.
If mercury is the cause of autism as so often claimed, it seems like people concerned about autism had better start paying a lot more attention to what their kids are eating given how much processed food contains the crap. The bizarre pro-hfcs commericals are hoping hard that we don’t realize how much food contains it (“it’s healthy in moderation” uh huh. It’s in almost all food not homemade, so we moderate this…how?)…but will anti-vaccine parents switch to targeting something else that actually contains mercury? We’ll see.
More like the synergestic effect of them all together.
In addition to what LavenderBlue posted about the Geiers being rejected as incompetent “expert witnesses” in vaccine court cases, their “research” (at least some of which is conducted from their home) has come under fire for both ethical and methodological foulups. They also promote, with zilch in the way of meaningful evidence, chemical castration for children with autism.
I feel sorry for both the parents and their autistic children who are taken in by these and other quack therapies based on discredited theories about autism causation.
False. Even if one ignores the fact that thimerosal-free flu vaccine is available and argues that all kids are getting the thimerosal-containing version, the amount of this preservative that children are exposed to in vaccines has dropped from miniscule to way less than miniscule. If thimerosal was the bogeyman causing autism, we should have seen a huge drop in autism rates in the approximately 7 years since thimerosal was dropped from routine vaccines. It hasn’t happened. You really should keep up with the times, Interested Observer. Most antivaxers know that the mercury hypothesis is dead, and are busy making up nonsense about other "toxins’ in vaccines.
Incidentally, any time you hear people going on about “toxins” in vaccines, foods etc. it’s a very good bet that they’ve been duped by alt med loonery and have no understanding of what a “toxin” is. Virtually any substance is “toxic” in high enough amounts (including water and oxygen). Virtually any substance is inert if present in low enough concentration*. The dose is the key.
*Unless you believe in homeopathy, which raises other sanity considerations.