# Court TV, Baghdad Style:Read his lips, 'cause we are scared to let you hear him... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721 "2004-07-06T00:56:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/1 "2004-07-06T00:56:46Z")
Following the first day’s fiasco where the Vichy Iraquis stumbled over their own dicks by attempting an arraignment in the absence of counsel, (an event more or less universally scored as Saddam 1, Bush 0) we learn that full bore “gavel to gavel” coverage of the upcoming trial is unlikely. (and especially the pre-trial motions, since this court is on its face illegal, see geneva convention) The reason stated is fear the a “forum” will thereby be granted to the wily old bull. l(who is also supposed to be deranged, uinhinged, and hysterical–so why not let everyone see it up close?) Query: Is this not quintessentially chickenshit? Does not the apprehension that our opponent, if heard, may convince, irretrievably taint our position, showing as it does, our own low estimate of the rightness of our cause? ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/2 "2004-07-06T02:18:57Z")
**Alaric** , for the love of all that is holy, use paragraphs and proof-read! Could you explain what you mean about the tribunal being illegal under the Geneva Convention? Got a cite? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/3 "2004-07-06T02:31:07Z")
> [@lambchops](#): > > **Alaric** , for the love of all that is holy, use paragraphs and proof-read! > > Could you explain what you mean about the tribunal being illegal under the Geneva Convention? Got a cite? n. ?Under the article 13 of the Third Geneva Convention, the United States cannot hand over Saddam to another party that lacks neutrality and independence, a description seems to be applicable to the interim Iraqi government,? Ghassan Jundi, professor of international law at the University of Jordan, told Arab News. ?Latest news about plans to deliver the former president to an Iraqi court apparently runs counter to this article, because the United States has already recognized Saddam as a prisoner of war,? he said.[http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:nQRqhq9xsmYJ:www.arabnews.com/%3Fpage%3D7%26section%3D0%26article%3D46919%26d%3D17%26m%3D6%26y%3D2004+hussein+trial+geneva+convention&hl=en](http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:nQRqhq9xsmYJ:www.arabnews.com/%3Fpage%3D7%26section%3D0%26article%3D46919%26d%3D17%26m%3D6%26y%3D2004+hussein+trial+geneva+convention&hl=en) ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/4 "2004-07-06T02:46:58Z")
Well, that’s an unusual interpretation of that article. From [here](http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm): > [@Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War](#): > > Article 13 > > Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest. > > Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity. > > Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited. Where does it discuss the jurisdiction of certain courts to try alleged war criminals? All this particular article says is that we must not mistreat Saddam. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/5 "2004-07-06T02:48:13Z")
(Hint - try looking at article 12 of the same Convention, for a start.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/6 "2004-07-06T02:50:10Z")
While I think the OP’s position is full of crap, I did chuckle at the “Vichy Iraquis” bit. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/7 "2004-07-06T03:00:04Z")
> [@lambchops](#): > > **Alaric** , for the love of all that is holy, use paragraphs and proof-read! those are paragraphs–each of the six or so sentences. sometimes a paragraph is one sentence long. (often, for me.–maybe a better way to put it is sometimes a sentence lasts a whole page…) ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/8 "2004-07-06T03:05:24Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > While I think the OP’s position is full of crap, I did chuckle at the “Vichy Iraquis” bit. which part? the main thrust of my post is that any proceedings that don’t include full tv access and simultaneous translation will be (justifiably, IMHO) viewed as manifesting a disinclination to permit saddam’s defense to be evaluated by the world community at large. I am objecting primarily to the management of information from the trial–the ancillary remarks about the jurisdictional problems were chit-chat. As for an unrepresented defendant appearing in court, well, that is an atrocity. Someone should have been able to bill for those hours. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/9 "2004-07-06T03:14:05Z")
[…what could go wrong when reading Saddam’s lips…](http://bigmixup.com/rockpapersaddam/) (some bad language, work safe in netscape) ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/10 "2004-07-06T03:25:07Z")
> [@lambchops](#): > > **Alaric** , for the love of all that is holy, use paragraphs and proof-read! > > Could you explain what you mean about the tribunal being illegal under the Geneva Convention? Got a cite? more particularly, I believe that the disabilities attaching to the ad hoc court established by the IGC/CPA stem primarily from the absence of input from any person actually ELECTED by the people living in the territory in which the miscreant and his crimes are alleged to have occurred. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/11 "2004-07-06T04:01:34Z")
Huh? Unrepresented? He has nearly twenty lawyers, including Moammar Khaddafi’s daughter. I’ve been seeing various lawyers pop up on cable news for nearly a month now. None of them were at the indictment, but the trail hasn’t started yet. Now that he knows the exact charges, his team can get to work. If you’re going to start threads, maybe you should have the basics? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/12 "2004-07-06T04:06:45Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > None of them were at the indictment,… > > If you’re going to start threads, maybe you should have the basics? when you are alone in court, you are REALLY alone. If you’re going to comment on jurisprudence, maybe you should go to law school. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/13 "2004-07-06T04:20:31Z")
The ppl that need to hear him are in the courtroom. As for blocking out some of his speeches, what could possibly be gained by allowing him to openly use the courtroom media for speechmaking? Would it help the courtroom proceedings? Would it help the Iraqi ppl? IMHO, the answer to both questions is NO. ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/14 "2004-07-06T14:31:26Z")
I know we gotta play the whole right to a fair trial game… But do they actually hope to get him off the charges? Its not like he can say “Oh, _I_ didn’t gas those people.” ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/15 "2004-07-06T15:12:23Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > The ppl that need to hear him are in the courtroom. > > As for blocking out some of his speeches, what could possibly be gained by allowing him to openly use the courtroom media for speechmaking? Would it help the courtroom proceedings? Would it help the Iraqi ppl? IMHO, the answer to both questions is NO. what is to be gained is the world’s recognition that we don’t have to gag our opponents. I take it, then, that you are of the mind that he is so persuasive as to render useless all our counterarguments, and we must prevent even the rumor of his defense from getting around? There is the sticky matter of jurisdiction, you know. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/16 "2004-07-06T15:13:57Z")
> [@clayton\_e](#): > > I know we gotta play the whole right to a fair trial game… > > But do they actually hope to get him off the charges? Its not like he can say “Oh, _I_ didn’t gas those people.” Well, actually, he can. the same way that dumb george can say “I didn’t shove that lightstick up habib’s ass…” ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/17 "2004-07-06T15:45:27Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > what is to be gained is the world’s recognition that we don’t have to gag our opponents. I take it, then, that you are of the mind that he is so persuasive as to render useless all our counterarguments, and we must prevent even the rumor of his defense from getting around? > > There is the sticky matter of jurisdiction, you know. No, it’s just that his rants have little to do with the questions being asked or the trial proceedings. He merely wants to use his time on camera to make speeches and still declare himself the leader of Iraq. There is no sticky jurisdiction matter, he is being put on trial by his own people - should be a fitting end. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/18 "2004-07-06T16:00:22Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > As for an unrepresented defendant appearing in court, well, that is an atrocity. Yeah, if an ex-dictator can’t get adequate representation, next thing you know it’ll be the falsely accused nun! If you wanted to make a serious statement about the court proceedings, you really should have tainted it with all this irrelevant anti-Bush crap, especially since the charges against Saddam relate to events that took place long before Bush43 took office. “Vichy Iraquis”, though… that’s still worth a chuckle. ---
**Author:** ![Seven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Seven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seven)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/19 "2004-07-06T22:57:19Z")
Personally, I think this trial should be handled with great care. I think Saddam is a murdering asshat, but he has become an important player in the USA vs Islam game. Saddam may or may not have given others a fair trial, but those in charge should go out of their way to make sure HE gets one. If the general perception is his trial is skewed and unfair, it will inflame more people. The last thing Iraq needs is more inflamed people. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721/20 "2004-07-06T23:42:32Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > more particularly, I believe that the disabilities attaching to the ad hoc court established by the IGC/CPA stem primarily from the absence of input from any person actually ELECTED by the people living in the territory in which the miscreant and his crimes are alleged to have occurred. But there is input from Iraqis. Are you attempting to argue about the court’s jurisdiction, the competence of the prosecutors, or the legitimacy of the government under which the court is established? It might be that you have a decent argument, but I can’t see it because of the confused phrasing and irrelevant items. Like you said yourself, if you’re going to comment on jurisprudence, going to law school sometimes helps. Will we resume this conversation in four years or so? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-tv-baghdad-style-read-his-lips-cause-we-are-scared-to-let-you-hear-him/253721.md?page=2)