# Court: White House has no legal duty to justify killing Americans abroad with drone strikes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978 "2013-01-03T17:36:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/41 "2013-01-03T22:02:52Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] That may not be relevant for the discussion, but it pisses me off. [/QUOTE] It’s not really relevant to the discussion, but you’ve made your point so why not let it go at this point and focus on THIS discussion? ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/42 "2013-01-03T22:03:24Z")
Serious question - is it possible they were tried in absentia? I imagine it would be a little hard to send them an email saying “Pretty please come to America. We find ourselves in the uncomfortable position of wishing to put you on trial and your cooperation is greatly appreciated.” ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/43 "2013-01-03T22:04:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So in five years, when (if) a Republican is back in the White House, I strongly suspect your reserves of strong passion will be magically renewed. > [@RitterSport](#): > > I will say one more thing on this and then end my half of the hijack: … … ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/44 "2013-01-03T22:07:50Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > By eating away at our rights to due process, we are heading down an bad path. I don’t think that the executive branch has to go through a whole trial before targeting someone, but there should be some form of oversight from another branch. There could be evidence presented to a special secret court like FISA before taking action, or before putting names on the kill list at least. I’d support something like that. But I think the amount of rights being eaten away gets overstated in debates like this. If a WWI-era U.S. infantryman had run out of his trench, gotten in a Central Powers trench and started shooting at the Allies, nobody would have argued that the U.S. military needed some kind of extra permission to kill him. There are some obvious ways in which that example differs from what’s going on with people like al-Awlaki and I don’t mean to ignore those, but the similarities shouldn’t be ignored either. If a careful review of the evidence says someone is involved in a conspiracy to kill Americans and the president has authorization to do take action against those people, they don’t get extra rights because they’re the same nationality as the people they’re trying to kill. > [@RitterSport](#): > > **Marley23** , I don’t believe you are planning terrorist attacks, but if Eric Holder does, you’d better watch out, because he doesn’t have to check with anyone. I’m as worried about that today as I was yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/45 "2013-01-03T22:16:35Z")
[QUOTE=RitterSport] Sorry, but they were specifically targeting an American. They didn’t get him by accident. [/QUOTE] I’m sorry, maybe you can fight my ignorance on this, but do you have a cite that he was the target? I’m assuming we are talking about the son here, not the father. If we are talking about the father, then that brings up some other issues. > [@](#): > > Whether or not the drone strikes are the right call seems like a topic for another thread. This thread is about the administration specifically killing Americans in other countries with no judicial oversight. The drone strike wasn’t specifically targeting Americans…it was specifically targeting terrorists who just happened to be Americans. I’m unsure how you and others are rationalizing all of this to be honest. Are you opposed to all drone strikes and are picking this as a technicality (I can sort of see this rational), or are you really saying that drone strikes are ok, unless Americans happen to be involved, in which case they are bad and instead we should…what? Send in the police to arrest these bad Americans and bring them back to the US for trial?? :dubious: > [@](#): > > I heartily disagree – I think it takes fewer guts to send in drones to kill people far away than it would to risk our own armed forces to go in and arrest suspected terrorists (American or otherwise) and bring them to justice. The vast, vast majority of voters could not care less about these drone strikes and who they are killing. This is the cowards way out. And, this tool has been very effective in making more enemies – can you imagine the shitstorm that would occur if Pakistan sent over a drone and accidentally killed the wrong wedding party? That said, this seems like a hijack to I’m sorry, but this is complete horseshit and it’s also not the type of ‘guts’ that I was talking about. Sending in drones isn’t ‘the cowards way out’…it’s the smart thing to do and actually causes less harm. Assuming you are going to fight at all, it’s going to cause the least harm, not only to your own people but to the folks around the targets. The ‘guts’ are that Obama is willing to take the political flack (pretty much endless flack on this subject) from purportedly his own side on this because he knows it’s the right thing to do…really the only option he has if he wants to go after the people who are causing all this ruckus and are hiding out in remote places or in other countries. The fact that some of the people (like 3 I think) have been Americans is pretty much immaterial. They have joined the ranks of the enemy we are fighting over there, so they made their choice. There is no slippery slope here…you aren’t going to see drone strikes in Montana or New York. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/46 "2013-01-03T22:18:10Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Al-alwaki (sp?) neither planned, authorized, committed, nor aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons. That is a fascinating statement, and highly relevant to a discussion of permissible actions under an Authorization for Use of Military Force that says, “…That **RitterSport** is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized…” ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/47 "2013-01-03T22:21:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’d support something like that. But I think the amount of rights being eaten away gets overstated in debates like this. If a WWI-era U.S. infantryman had run out of his trench, gotten in a Central Powers trench and started shooting at the Allies, nobody would have argued that the U.S. military needed some kind of extra permission to kill him. There are some obvious ways in which that example differs from what’s going on with people like al-Awlaki and I don’t mean to ignore those, but the similarities shouldn’t be ignored either. If a careful review of the evidence says someone is involved in a conspiracy to kill Americans and the president has authorization to do take action against those people, they don’t get extra rights because they’re the same nationality as the people they’re trying to kill. This is pretty much exactly how I feel (lifelong Democrat here). Would like more oversight in the process (even if it’s in secret), but also don’t think an American has special rights if he’s engaging in terrorist acts in another country. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/48 "2013-01-03T22:25:21Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Al-alwaki (sp?) neither planned, authorized, committed, nor aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons. In addition to his many jihad videos, he was in contact with a couple of the September 11th hijackers before that attack and corresponded with Nidal Hassan before he shot up Fort Hood. What bad luck this guy had to keep accidentally running into people who would go on to commit terrorist attacks. If we knew the specifics I don’t think it would be too difficult to make the case that this falls under the criteria you quoted. > [@Bricker](#): > > That is a fascinating statement, and highly relevant to a discussion of permissible actions under an Authorization for Use of Military Force that says, “…That **RitterSport** is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized…” I’m not sure that putting it that way counters what **RitterSport** is saying. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/49 "2013-01-03T22:31:10Z")
Enough words for you? [http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/429100\_227178417417064\_625468781\_n.jpg](http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/429100_227178417417064_625468781_n.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/50 "2013-01-03T22:32:41Z")
No…could you elaborate? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/51 "2013-01-03T22:34:06Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Enough words for you? I didn’t say anything about a number of words. I said **Bricker** and \*\*XT \*\* and **Lord Felton** were posting more _content_, meaning they were doing better than you are in terms of quality, not quantity. So while I regret the deaths of children, no, your jpeg doesn’t change that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/52 "2013-01-03T22:37:28Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Enough words for you? > > [http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/429100\_227178417417064\_625468781\_n.jpg](http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/429100_227178417417064_625468781_n.jpg) At least 39 children have died as a result of the war effort. And? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/53 "2013-01-03T22:40:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That is a fascinating statement, and highly relevant to a discussion of permissible actions under an Authorization for Use of Military Force that says, “…That **RitterSport** is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized…” 😕 I’m saying that congress put limits on the president’s authority, and it seems obvious that Al-Alwaki (sp?) falls outside the limits in the text you quoted. The wiki article on him says that Bin Laden didn’t even like the guy. **XT** , I’m talking about the father. I think drone strikes may have their place but are drastically overused by this administration. And, with that, I sign off for the night and pay attention to my family. If this thread isn’t 10 pages long by tomorrow, I’ll try to get back to it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/54 "2013-01-03T22:45:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > At least 39 children have died as a result of the war effort. We all know terrorists take great care to avoid killing children. Only eight died on the flights they smashed into the World Trade Center, and while there was a day care center in the WTC, it was on the ground floor and none of those children were killed. Obviously they never would have attacked the building if they hadn’t known for a fact that all the children would get out safely. > [@RitterSport](#): > > I’m saying that congress put limits on the president’s authority, and it seems obvious that Al-Alwaki (sp?) falls outside the limits in the text you quoted. The wiki article on him says that Bin Laden didn’t even like the guy. This is the ultimate in “so what.” Bin Laden didn’t like Ayman al-Zawahiri either, but he was still his top deputy. I don’t think he thought much of al-Zarqawi, for that matter. They are/were still indisputably members of Al Qaeda, and al-Awlaki had some fairly obvious involvement with AQ as well. That means the authorization includes him. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/55 "2013-01-03T22:46:04Z")
**Marley23** , sorry, I didn’t see your post about his activities before I replied. That changes the analysis under that law. I still hate the open-ended nature of that law, the Patriot act, and how this and the previous administrations have been acting in this regard, but I concede it’s probably technically legal. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/56 "2013-01-03T22:47:54Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not sure that putting it that way counters what **RitterSport** is saying. The point being that the AUMF gives the President’s determinations legal force, and no force whatsoever to RitterSport’s determinations. So for RitterSport to conclude that Anwar al-Aulaqi does not fit the criteria is pretty useless. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/57 "2013-01-03T22:51:36Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > **Marley23** , sorry, I didn’t see your post about his activities before I replied. That changes the analysis under that law. I still hate the open-ended nature of that law, the Patriot act, and how this and the previous administrations have been acting in this regard, but I concede it’s probably technically legal. Wait… so your deep and trenchant analysis of the issue, in which you conclude that the President’s determination was wrong because it was “obvious,” was based on some level of examination of the facts that didn’t include his contact with the September 11th hijackers before that attack? > [@Bricker](#): > > So for RitterSport to conclude that Anwar al-Aulaqi does not fit the criteria is pretty useless. Even more useless now that it’s clear your conclusion was based on clues derived from reading the backs of old boxes of Frosted Lucky Charms. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/58 "2013-01-03T23:04:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We all know terrorists take great care to avoid killing children. Only eight died on the flights they smashed into the World Trade Center, and while there was a day care center in the WTC, it was on the ground floor and none of those children were killed. Obviously they never would have attacked the building if they hadn’t known for a fact that all the children would get out safely. This is the sort of bullshit that pro-drone thinking leads to. “Terrorism is bad! Disagree with Obama and you’re a terrorist! I’m going to respond to every problem with America by talking about how bad terrorism is, as if that is relevant!” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/59 "2013-01-03T23:05:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The point being that the AUMF gives the President’s determinations legal force, and no force whatsoever to RitterSport’s determinations. So for RitterSport to conclude that Anwar al-Aulaqi does not fit the criteria is pretty useless. I’m pretty sure **RitterSport** knows that. But if **RitterSport** has questions about the reliability of those determinations, a simply assertion of authority is not reassuring. > [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > This is the sort of bullshit that pro-drone thinking leads to. It seemed pretty well on point to me since your post was really just an appeal to emotion, but I’m sure you’ll provide a solid rationale now. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978/60 "2013-01-03T23:11:12Z")
My argument is that murdering children is bad, giving unlimited power to the President as long as he says the magic word “terrorism” is bad, and that your support of this makes you morally bankrupt. Your argument is a recycled Rudy Giuliani talking point where your answer to anything is NINELEVENINELEVENINELEVEN. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/court-white-house-has-no-legal-duty-to-justify-killing-americans-abroad-with-drone-strikes/645978.md?page=4)