# Courtroom 101: things defendants shouldn't do **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 6, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453 "2013-02-06T03:49:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/121 "2013-02-10T02:21:59Z")
Well yeah, obviously the judge can \* ask\*. The question was whether counsel could object and whether it would do the client any good. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/122 "2013-02-10T02:46:29Z")
I was responding to this comment: “I think he might have opened himself up for bad things by taking the role of prosecutor.” He wasn’t “taking the role of prosecutor” and he wasn’t “open[ing] himself up for bad things.” Judges can ask questions. This was a bail hearing. That means that the defendant has already been arrested and arraigned. This is well past the point at which she would have been informed of her rights. If she didn’t already have hired counsel at this point, she would be assigned a public defender attending the hearing with her. There would also be a representative of the state present. Counsel is free to object. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/123 "2013-02-10T03:07:21Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Overuse of the “jail system”? Jail and prison are two different things. This is a modern, invented distinction for words that have been interchangeable for a few hundred years and still are for most English speakers. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/124 "2013-02-10T03:10:49Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > This is a modern, invented distinction for words that have been interchangeable for a few hundred years and still are for most English speakers. It’s a _relevant_ modern, invented distinction when someone brings up the modern justice system and its criticisms. Remember, we’re talking about a situation in which a judge sent a defendant to jail, a situation in which the modern, invented meaning of “jail” is operative. ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/125 "2013-02-10T03:50:09Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > The same judge did mitigate the sentence when she apologized. … i was wondering if that would have happened if the situation hadn’t blown up publicly with the viral video. was the opportunity to apologise a routine given or a special circumstance? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/126 "2013-02-10T04:35:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If she had walked away without saying anything, the rest of it would not have happened. So yes, it would have been much more polite for her to walk away without saying anything. Because something happened that makes it impolite? Bullshit, the judge went on a powertrip over absolutely nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/127 "2013-02-10T04:39:50Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s a _relevant_ modern, invented distinction when someone brings up the modern justice system and its criticisms. Remember, we’re talking about a situation in which a judge sent a defendant to jail, a situation in which the modern, invented meaning of “jail” is operative. Strange use of “relevant” when your objection to my use was actually irrelevant to the central point of the post, which was a question about how bail is handled. FWIW I know that distinction, and I think our jails are overused as well as our prisons, but since that was a tangential comment to the post, I was willing to suggest we ignore it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/128 "2013-02-10T04:45:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > and I think our jails are overused as well as our prisons Well, you must be an expert in the field then. I can’t say that I have come across a lot of literature in the general interest media arguing the overuse of detention for the purposes that jails are used for constitutes a national crisis in the manner of the prison phenomenon. > [@](#): > > but since that was a tangential comment to the post, I was willing to suggest we ignore it. Tell Ruken that. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/129 "2013-02-10T07:17:50Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > i was wondering if that would have happened if the situation hadn’t blown up publicly with the viral video. was the opportunity to apologise a routine given or a special circumstance? I think it is routinely given to all but the worst of the worst. In my county, we had a guy shoot another. The guy fully admitted to the shooting (the victim survived). While in custody waiting trial, he committed assault against court officers and contempt of court. He spit on people, yelled profanities and head bashed a guard. The charges were dropped when he apologized for being a douche in court. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/130 "2013-02-10T07:38:13Z")
I deal with kids like her every day. That girl simply _did not believe_ that the judge would match her escalation of the situation. She knew exactly what she was doing with that “adios.” Watch her body language when she walks away. Watch her look over her shoulder as she turns to see his reaction. Watch her continue to giggle when she calls him back, and watch her complete disbelief at actually have her shit called out. She flipped him off because she was pissed that he _called her on it_. Some kids don’t have the capacity to back down when a situation with an authority figure escalates, because they’ve been brought up in situations where the authority figures (mostly schoolteachers) don’t actually have the authority to do much. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/131 "2013-02-10T14:59:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > One could argue that, sure. Do you think that that would be a strong argument, and that the judge was setting bail according to accepted guidelines? Yes, I think it would be a strong argument. I don’t know what the accepted guidelines are, except that bail is up to the judge to decide. And seeing a defendant treating the court system with the contempt this stoner did is a relevant factor in deciding bail. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/132 "2013-02-10T15:09:58Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I deal with kids like her every day. > > That girl simply _did not believe_ that the judge would match her escalation of the situation. She knew exactly what she was doing with that “adios.” Watch her body language when she walks away. Watch her look over her shoulder as she turns to see his reaction. Watch her continue to giggle when she calls him back, and watch her complete disbelief at actually have her shit called out. She flipped him off because she was pissed that he _called her on it_. > > Some kids don’t have the capacity to back down when a situation with an authority figure escalates, because they’ve been brought up in situations where the authority figures (mostly schoolteachers) don’t actually have the authority to do much. Well put. That’s exactly how it seemed to me. That girl was contemptuous from start to finish, including the adios, and the entire escapade was the exercise of an _absolute_ belief that no one would ever call her out for acting like an asshole to others. She was _stunned_ when it occurred. That judge did her a favor, especially when we see how it turned out. Perhaps she now has a shot at being a productive member of society, which includes the recognition that we all have to follow the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/133 "2013-02-10T17:50:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes, I think it would be a strong argument. I don’t know what the accepted guidelines are How on earth can these two sentences appear back-to-back? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/134 "2013-02-10T18:23:33Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > How on earth can these two sentences appear back-to-back? Apparently it is possible if you edit off the part that explains it. Bail is at the judge’s discretion. There isn’t any “accepted guideline” that says judges may not increase bail to get the attention of an arrogant, stoned-out brat. Ten grand is not excessive bail, and is not a punishment. She found out she couldn’t smart off to the judge the way she did to her mother and her homeroom teacher. Boo hoo. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/135 "2013-02-10T19:11:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Apparently it is possible if you edit off the part that explains it. That part didn’t explain anything. > [@](#): > > Bail is at the judge’s discretion. There isn’t any “accepted guideline” that says judges may not increase bail to get the attention of an arrogant, stoned-out brat. Frankly, I think you’re talking out your ass at this point. You just said you didn’t know the accepted guidelines, now you’re saying you know that no guideline exists preventing this situation. Make up your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/136 "2013-02-10T19:17:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > A question: what is the purpose of setting bail? > > I was under the impression that the amount of bail was generally set in accordance with the risk that the defendant wouldn’t show up, and/or would be a danger to society. > > The judge in this case appeared to set bail according to how much he disliked the defendant, or how disrespectful the defendant is. > > Is that an appropriate use of bail? > > Because that’s the moment in the video that really annoyed me. When he gave her 30 days for flipping him off, I’m a bit bothered by that, because it seems like a profligate use of the jail system, in a country where we already way overuse our jail system. But when he doubled her bail, that seemed like he was using the wrong tool to punish her. Are judges allowed or encouraged to use bail to punish disrespect? No. But a judge, like any finder of fact, may take into account a witnesses’ demeanor when assessing the credibility of the witness. And it’s a perfectly permissible inference for a judge to observe, “This defendant flouts the rules of behavior and decorum in court, and so I find it more likely she will flout the rules that require her to appear for trial and at other mandatory points in the criminal prosecution process.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/137 "2013-02-10T19:19:29Z")
[Here’s what I find for how to determine bail amounts](http://www.floridabar.org/TFB/TFBResources.nsf/0/BDFE1551AD291A3F85256B29004BF892/$FILE/Criminal.pdf): > [@](#): > > In determining whether to release a defendant on bail or other > conditions, and what that bail or those conditions may be, the court may consider the nature > and circumstances of the offense charged and the penalty provided by law; the weight of the > evidence against the defendant; the defendant‘s family ties, length of residence in the > community, employment history, financial resources, need for substance abuse evaluation > and/or treatment, and mental condition; the defendant‘s past and present conduct, including > any record of convictions, previous flight to avoid prosecution, or failure to appear at court > proceedings; the nature and probability of danger that the defendant‘s release poses to the > community; the source of funds used to post bail; whether the defendant is already on release > pending resolution of another criminal proceeding or is on probation, parole, or other release > pending completion of sentence; and any other facts the court considers relevant. I suspect the judge might claim he was re-setting bail according to new information about the defendant’s mental condition, or “other facts the court considers relevant.” Both claims, however, are IMO pretty weak; it really appeared that the judge was just getting revenge against the defendant for her obnoxious behavior. Or, to quote a famous authority on the subject: > [@](#): > > Richard Vernon: You’re not fooling anyone, Bender. The next screw that falls out will be you. > John Bender: Eat my shorts. > Richard Vernon: What was that? > John Bender: Eat… My… Shorts. > Richard Vernon: You just bought yourself another Saturday. > John Bender: Ooh, I’m crushed. > Richard Vernon: You just bought one more. > John Bender: Well I’m free the Saturday after that. Beyond that, I’m going to have to check my calendar. > Richard Vernon: Good, cause it’s going to be filled. We’ll keep going. You want another one? Just say the word say it. Instead of going to prison you’ll come here. Are you through? > John Bender: No. > Richard Vernon: I’m doing society a favor. > John Bender: So? > Richard Vernon: That’s another one right now! I’ve got you for the rest of your natural born life if you don’t watch your step. You want another one? > John Bender: Yes. > Richard Vernon: You got it! You got another one right there! That’s another one pal! > Claire Standish: Cut it out! > Richard Vernon: You through? > John Bender: Not even close bud! > Richard Vernon: Good! You got one more right there! > John Bender: You really think I give a shit? > Richard Vernon: Another! You through? > John Bender: How many is that? > Brian Johnson: That’s seven including when we first came in and you asked Mr. Vernon whether Barry Manilow knew that he raided his closet. > Richard Vernon: Now it’s eight. You stay out of this. > Brian Johnson: Excuse me sir, it’s seven. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/138 "2013-02-12T13:46:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > it really appeared that the judge was just getting revenge against the defendant for her obnoxious behavior. No it didn’t. The defendant was wasted and mouthing off. Your own fucking cite says the judge may consider the > [@](#): > > need for substance abuse valuation and/or treatment, and mental condition; the defendant‘s past and present conduct… in setting bail. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/139 "2013-02-12T14:27:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Your own fucking cite says the judge may consider the in setting bail. It does; indeed, I mentioned one of those factors myself, thanks fucking much. THe other one–past and present conduct–is followed by a qualifier that renders the factor irrelevant in this case: “including any record of convictions, previous flight to avoid prosecution, or failure to appear at court proceedings…” The claim would then be that he learned something about her mental state from her “adios!”–given, remember, in response to his own flippant and dismissive “bye bye!”–that he hadn’t already known, something so significant that it justified doubling the bail. Weak sauce. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453/140 "2013-02-12T15:09:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It does; indeed, I mentioned one of those factors myself, thanks fucking much. THe other one–past and present conduct–is followed by a qualifier that renders the factor irrelevant in this case: “including any record of convictions, previous flight to avoid prosecution, or failure to appear at court > proceedings…” > > The claim would then be that he learned something about her mental state from her “adios!”–given, remember, in response to his own flippant and dismissive “bye bye!”–that he hadn’t already known, something so significant that it justified doubling the bail. > > Weak sauce. Forget mental state. How about the judge considering relevant the fact that the defendant flouts the rules of behavior and decorum in court, and concluding it’s more likely she will flout the rules that require her to appear for trial and at other mandatory points in the criminal prosecution process. What makes you believe that cannot be another factor “which the judge considers relevant?” The judge could put that finding on the record and his change of bail would be absolutely safe from reversal on appeal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courtroom-101-things-defendants-shouldnt-do/649453.md?page=8)