# "Courts are in no position to second-guess the judgments of correctional officials" - WTF?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 3, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-are-in-no-position-to-second-guess-the-judgments-of-correctional-officials-wtf/617723 "2012-04-03T19:42:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![curioushat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9e5f3/32.png) [@curioushat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curioushat)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-are-in-no-position-to-second-guess-the-judgments-of-correctional-officials-wtf/617723/1 "2012-04-03T19:42:57Z")
> **[Supreme Court Ruling Allows Strip Searches for Any Arrest (Published 2012)](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/us/justices-approve-strip-searches-for-any-offense.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&hp)** > > The court ruled that people arrested for any offense, however minor, may be forced to strip before being jailed, even if there is no suspicion of contraband. I saw another thread on this but wanted to add this to the conversation as I feel that it separate from the debate on whether strip searches should be allowed or not. If the courts are not willing or not able to check the power of the police, then who is? “Courts are in no position to second-guess the judgments of correctional officials” So if a prisoner is out of line, it is okay to beat them because we should blindly trust what the correctional officials feel like is appropriate? How about arresting citizens because the police just “feel” like they committed a crime? Again, who should be second guessing the police? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-are-in-no-position-to-second-guess-the-judgments-of-correctional-officials-wtf/617723/2 "2012-04-03T19:49:11Z")
> [@curioushat](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/us/justices-approve-strip-searches-for-any-offense.html?pagewanted=1&\_r=2&hp](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/us/justices-approve-strip-searches-for-any-offense.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&hp) > I saw another thread on this but wanted to add this to the conversation as I feel that it separate from the debate on whether strip searches should be allowed or not. > > If the courts are not willing or not able to check the power of the police, then who is? > > “Courts are in no position to second-guess the judgments of correctional officials” > > So if a prisoner is out of line, it is okay to beat them because we should blindly trust what the correctional officials feel like is appropriate? How about arresting citizens because the police just “feel” like they committed a crime? Again, who should be second guessing the police? Your quote was from Justice Kennedy, who also said > [@](#): > > People detained for minor offenses can turn out to be the most devious and dangerous criminals. ---
**Author:** ![curioushat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9e5f3/32.png) [@curioushat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curioushat)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-are-in-no-position-to-second-guess-the-judgments-of-correctional-officials-wtf/617723/3 "2012-04-03T19:58:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Your quote was from Justice Kennedy, who also said Sure, they may be the most devious criminals, but I would surmise that the most devious criminals are the ones who are never caught at all. However my question remains that if the supreme court not only doesn’t step in but specifically does not step in because they don’t want to second guess corrections officers, then who has the power to step in from a legal point of view? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-are-in-no-position-to-second-guess-the-judgments-of-correctional-officials-wtf/617723/4 "2012-04-03T20:08:53Z")
I’m sorry if I was unclear-I’m agreeing with you, and added the quote to show his faulty reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-are-in-no-position-to-second-guess-the-judgments-of-correctional-officials-wtf/617723/5 "2012-04-03T21:31:57Z")
The full paragraph: > [@opinion of the court](#): > > The case turns in part on the extent to which this Court has sufficient expertise and information in the record to mandate, under the Constitution, the specific restrictions and limitations sought by those who challenge the visual search procedures at issue. In addressing this type of constitutional claim courts must defer to the judgment of correctional officials **unless the record contains substantial evidence showing their policies are an unnecessary or unjustified response to problems of jail security**. That necessary showing has not been made in this case. Could you please outline the evidence you feel demonstrates why this activity is unnecessary or unjustified? (I think asking for “substantial” evidence is a bit much on a message board, so feel free to ignore that charge.) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-are-in-no-position-to-second-guess-the-judgments-of-correctional-officials-wtf/617723/6 "2012-04-03T22:23:10Z")
I think it is easy to cherry pick words from SCOTUS decisions, and obviously the specific words you’ve picked aren’t the most defensible. I do think that if you look at the SCOTUS “body of work” they obviously don’t mean they can **never** second guess the judgment of correctional officials (while some COs are sworn officers with a more limited jurisdiction, most people do not refer to them as police.) Hell, without doing a search I’m willing to bet that Kennedy himself has published opinions in which he says the behavior of police or corrections officers was constitutionally inappropriate. Without further evidence I think it may be fair, given the SCOTUS body of work, what Kennedy’s words actually mean are “in matters of jailhouse security it is not wise for the judicial branch to second guess the security policies of the corrections officers unless there is some extremely compelling need.” I’m sure if the correctional officers decided chaining everyone in the jail to the floor was now required security procedure the SCOTUS would have a problem with that, but issues like searching all incoming prisoners? I don’t see any SCOTUS in my lifetime saying corrections officers can’t do a search on someone being processed into the population of a jail or prison. ---
**Author:** ![Jasper\_Kent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9a28c/32.png) [@Jasper\_Kent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasper_Kent)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-are-in-no-position-to-second-guess-the-judgments-of-correctional-officials-wtf/617723/7 "2012-04-03T22:26:41Z")
_ **WTF?** _ is right. If the courts aren’t in that position, then who the hell is? ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-are-in-no-position-to-second-guess-the-judgments-of-correctional-officials-wtf/617723/8 "2012-04-07T08:26:57Z")
I don’t get the angst. Why would courts second guess anything? I am with **Erislover**. Is there a transcript of what the Judge said, rather than a paraphrase written by a hack? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-are-in-no-position-to-second-guess-the-judgments-of-correctional-officials-wtf/617723/9 "2012-04-07T12:12:16Z")
Courts do not ordinarily reverse decisions made by the executive pursuant to recognized power even the court disagrees with it unless the executive decision is arbitrary, capricious, malafide, patently unreasonable or in excess or abuse of powers. It is recognized that many executive agencies (of which correctional departments are one) bring expertise to the issue which the Court lacks and thus deference to themes proper unless the case falls in one of the recognized heads of Judical review. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-are-in-no-position-to-second-guess-the-judgments-of-correctional-officials-wtf/617723/10 "2012-04-07T13:31:02Z")
It’s sort of like how a homeowner would give deference to an electrician if he said that the breaker box needed replaced. You would obviously question the need for such an expense, but if you otherwise trusted him, you would defer to his expertise. OTOH, if he said that your house needed to be destroyed and rebuilt, you would question a lot harder. But, ultimately, when you make a decision, you will defer to someone with superior knowledge. I believe that was all Kennedy was saying: No absolute deference to the point where the Court would remain silent if corrections departments claimed that executing prisoners without trial was necessary for security, but in the sense of a close question, “Hey, these guys are the pros here.” ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-are-in-no-position-to-second-guess-the-judgments-of-correctional-officials-wtf/617723/11 "2012-04-07T14:03:02Z")
> [@Justice Kennedy](#): > > People detained for minor offenses can turn out to be the most devious and dangerous criminals. and presumably devious and dangerous criminals have a right to due process? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-are-in-no-position-to-second-guess-the-judgments-of-correctional-officials-wtf/617723/12 "2012-04-07T14:11:46Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > and presumably devious and dangerous criminals have a right to due process? Yes, and I fail to see the violation here. ---
**Author:** ![Jon55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@Jon55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon55)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-are-in-no-position-to-second-guess-the-judgments-of-correctional-officials-wtf/617723/13 "2012-04-07T15:46:40Z")
Is this thread about liberal media bias? Just kidding. I think the paraphrase came from this part of his opinion. In addressing this type of constitutional claim courts must defer to the judgment of correctional officials unless the record contains substantial evidence showing their policies are an unnecessary or un-justified response to problems of jail security. That necessary showing has not been made in this case. [http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/10-945.pdf](http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/10-945.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-are-in-no-position-to-second-guess-the-judgments-of-correctional-officials-wtf/617723/14 "2012-04-10T18:50:18Z")
**Martin Hyde** has it correct. Kennedy is not arguing “under no circumstances ever may we question the activities of jailers.” He is saying that when it comes to whether or not searching a prisoner is required, they are in a better position than him to decide such a question.