# Courts that order kids from the only parents they've ever known **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 31, 2004, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-that-order-kids-from-the-only-parents-theyve-ever-known/282460 "2004-12-31T18:52:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-that-order-kids-from-the-only-parents-theyve-ever-known/282460/41 "2005-01-01T04:40:19Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Let me see if I can summarize what **treis** has argued. > > 1. The mother did not want the child and put child up for adoption > > 2. Convention wisdom is that, absent abuse, a child is better off with a biological parent > > 3. The biological father has petitioned for custody, and did so as soon as he learned of the child’s existence > > 4. The article doesn’t say there was any instance of abuse (although it beats around that bush) > > 5. Therefore, the only biological parent that actually \*wanted \* the child seems the obvious choice for custody > Is that about it? No, because the judge made an alternate decision which means there must have been a problem with the father. The article hints at domestic violence so that would explain it. The bottom line is that we do not have enough data to dispute the judge’s decision. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-that-order-kids-from-the-only-parents-theyve-ever-known/282460/42 "2005-01-01T04:40:31Z")
There could be numerous motions and restraining orders filed and argued by all the parties, and the court has taken it’s time in deciding. And I still think there is a contested allegation of domestic battery that wasn’t reported in the article. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-that-order-kids-from-the-only-parents-theyve-ever-known/282460/43 "2005-01-01T04:46:36Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > No, because the judge made an alternate decision which means there must have been a problem with the father. The article hints at domestic violence so that would explain it. The bottom line is that we do not have enough data to dispute the judge’s decision. Judge’s aren’t infallible and I am free to dispute their decision anytime I want. The decision seems odd and I want more information about the reasoning behind it. Nothing more Nothing less. I agree spooje there is something else in this case whether it be domestic abuse or otherwise. I just want to know what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-that-order-kids-from-the-only-parents-theyve-ever-known/282460/44 "2005-01-01T04:50:18Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Judge’s aren’t infallible and I am free to dispute their decision anytime I want. The decision seems odd and I want more information about the reasoning behind it. Nothing more Nothing less. > > I agree spooje there is something else in this case whether it be domestic abuse or otherwise. I just want to know what it is. You do not have the requisite data to question the decision so why don’t you take your “questions” outside and pound them up your ass. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-that-order-kids-from-the-only-parents-theyve-ever-known/282460/45 "2005-01-01T04:51:10Z")
this case should serve to illustrate the dire need for good reporters and editors, especially at MSNBC ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-that-order-kids-from-the-only-parents-theyve-ever-known/282460/46 "2005-01-01T04:55:03Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > You do not have the requisite data to question the decision so why don’t you take your “questions” outside and pound them up your ass. What a delicious statement, I’m saving that one for future use. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-that-order-kids-from-the-only-parents-theyve-ever-known/282460/47 "2005-01-01T04:59:47Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > You do not have the requisite data to question the decision so why don’t you take your “questions” outside and pound them up your ass. What crawled up ass and died? I have enough information (see spoojes 5 step analysis) to see something is odd with the judge’s decision. I asked a simple question and for some reason you decided to go off on one of your ‘men are assholes’ rants. ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-that-order-kids-from-the-only-parents-theyve-ever-known/282460/48 "2005-01-01T05:18:37Z")
From the poorly written article: > [@](#): > > The adoption was supposed to become final in August 2001, but a month before that, White filed a motion demanding immediate custody. The Scotts claimed White should not be able to block the adoption, but a judge disagreed. The adoption was never finalized. So while one could say Hopkins [the biological mother] started the process of “giving the child up for adoption” she never actually “gave the child up for adoption.” So, since no adoption ever took place-- the fight over legal custody is between the biological parents. It is unfortunate, but true. The real pitting should be for courts/legal systems/state laws that allow custody cases to drag on for more than 3 years. ---
**Author:** ![Chotii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@Chotii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chotii)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-that-order-kids-from-the-only-parents-theyve-ever-known/282460/49 "2005-01-01T05:45:38Z")
Now, once upon a time I had a roommate who - to make a weird story short - wound up getting pregnant at a church singles retreat. The man in question began harrassing her horribly, calling our apartment at all hours and demanding to talk to her, and threatening to have the child taken away from her and given to him in sole custody. He still lived with his parents and was an absolute jerk, by the way. My roommate went into hiding and I lost touch with her. I hope she did all right. It is not beyond possibility that the father in question in this story stopped the adoption process, and demanded immediate custody of the child, in order to hurt or control the mother in question. That he would also hurt the child and the adoptive-parents-to-be would then be mere collateral damage, and unimportant (to him). Of course, this is conjecture. And I still feel awful for that little boy. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-that-order-kids-from-the-only-parents-theyve-ever-known/282460/50 "2005-01-01T06:01:21Z")
Indeed \*\* Chotii \*\* the focus of this rant should be the awful situation that this child is in through no fault of his own. My take on it is that the courts and the Scotts suck ass for dragging this out. It remains to be seen whether the Mother is being a cunt or the Father is an asshole (or both). I apologize for the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-that-order-kids-from-the-only-parents-theyve-ever-known/282460/51 "2005-01-01T07:13:43Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > I agree that the would-be adoptive parents share a good portion of blame here, since their legally baseless claim has now resulted in . I can certainly understand their willingness to fight, however. A child that was given to them at birth with the expectation of adoption, that was theirs without apparent question for the first two months after birth . . . who wouldn’t fight? That’s why I place more blame on the judges/social workers/etc. who _allowed_ this fight to go on for so long. The fight was inevitable, but the delay in resolving it most certainly was not. > > Parenthood doesn’t work that way. I’d fight heaven and earth if somebody tried to give my child away to a pair of strangers, no matter how great they might be and no matter how attached the child became to them and no matter how long the child lived with them. Seriously, at what point would you suggest a parent should say “Oh well, he seems pretty happy. Forget about it, you can keep him after all.” I can understand the father’s willingness to fight, just like I can understand the would-be adoptive parents willingness to fight. But none of them was thinking of the best interests of the child. They were thinking of their _own_ interests. Parents put the child’s interest ahead of their own plenty of the time. In fact, in my own experiences working in child welfare, biological parents surrendering their children for adoption generally would have preferred to keep the child , but surrendered based on what they thought was best for the child.I’ve known pre-adoptive foster parents who, rather than trying to fight a losing battle when the bio-parents decided not to surrender, instead maintained a close relationship with the child after he was returned to the bio-parents. A relationship that very likely would not have been possible had they fought for custody and lost. I’d fight heaven and earth to keep someone from giving my child to a pair of strangers, too- but once the child had already been given to the strangers, and had never lived with me, and apparently didn’t have much of a relationship with me ( if any- I doubt the would be adoptive parents allowed the bio-father a whole lot of visitation) I hope that at some point long before three years I would say not “Oh well, he seems pretty happy. Forget about it, you can keep him after all.”, but “My happiness is not worth putting the child through this trauma”. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-that-order-kids-from-the-only-parents-theyve-ever-known/282460/52 "2005-01-01T18:42:47Z")
More articles on this story with more details than the MSNBC article. Everything else appears to be the AP wire story MSNBC quoted. The Tribune article below has by far the most info. [Biological mom wins 3-way battle](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0412310282dec31,1,5071264.story?coll=chi-news-hed) [Boy Caught in Adoption Drama](http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041230/NEWS/412300376/1004) [Here’s a picture of the adoptive parents](http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=371722&page=1) froma GMA interview. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-that-order-kids-from-the-only-parents-theyve-ever-known/282460.md?page=2)