# Courts unwinding Chris Hansen style net sex sting convictions without actual victims **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2009, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929 "2009-01-05T10:50:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9adbd/32.png) [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fell_through_the_Ice)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/21 "2009-01-05T20:27:55Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > My question is, are these guys given an opportunity to have sex with an adult woman and they passed it up because they’d rather have sex with a minor? Or is the apparent minor the only female who would give them the time of day? I’ve read quite a few of these transcripts. The overwhelming majority of these creeps are not interested in adult women. They are obsessed with “taking a young girl’s virginity”, “being her first”, and/or “showing her how to have sex”. Ick. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/22 "2009-01-05T20:36:40Z")
> [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](#): > > I’ve read quite a few of these transcripts. > > The overwhelming majority of these creeps are not interested in adult women. They are obsessed with “taking a young girl’s virginity”, “being her first”, and/or “showing her how to have sex”. > > Ick. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9adbd/32.png) [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fell_through_the_Ice)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/23 "2009-01-05T20:42:45Z")
> [@Gukumatz](#): > > Cite? No particular cite, just info from reading a few dozen of the transcripts on [perverted-justice.com](http://perverted-justice.com)\* and on dateline’s site. The “I want to be your first” line is almost ubiquitous. - Not that I am a fan, these people are vicious, unethical vigilantes and their methods are despicable. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/24 "2009-01-05T21:21:23Z")
I’m fine with cops posing as kids in Internet chat rooms to trap child molesters, but I’m kinda leery of the ‘bait car’ stuff to trap car thieves. The difference, in my mind, lies in the severity of the consequences of a successful crime. If someone steals my car, I can take the insurance money and buy another one. If someone molests a child, the child will likely be messed up for a good chunk of his/her life. The consequences are severe enough that it’s important to catch such predators _before_ anyone’s a victim. Similarly when someone makes noises about needing a hit man. Far better for them to get tossed into the pokey after contacting a cop posing as a ‘hit man’ than finding a real one, and getting imprisoned after their intended victim is successfully bumped off. But leaving a bicycle out…that’s just ridiculous. Whoever steals an unlocked bicycle left in a public place, is only trivially stealing it from its owner, because the owner’s never going to see it again even if they let someone else do the honors. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/25 "2009-01-05T23:38:22Z")
> [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](#): > > The “I want to be your first” line is almost ubiquitous. However, I’m not sure it indicates the true motivation of these guys; it could just be a line they think will be effective in manipulating their victim. I was wondering - is there really that much difference in prowling for 15 year old girls, versus for 18-year-olds? Sure there’s _some_ difference, because the girls will mature in those three years, but society views one case as despicable and revolting, while the other is acceptable. I thought about that because my wife expressed her disgust with me thinking that Julianne Hough is a hottie - I’m 47, she’s 19, and I have a 19 year old niece! What a perv I am! On the other hand, I was reading the book _Why Beautiful People Have More Girls_ and it points out that my brain is hard-wired to be attracted to youthfulness in women, while my wife’s brain isn’t wired to be attracted to the corresponding youthfulness in men. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/26 "2009-01-05T23:47:22Z")
I don’t think I’d go as far as saying that 40-year-olds trying to pick 18 year old girls on the internet would be acceptable, even if it is legal. Nothing wrong with finding 19 year old supermodels sexy. What are we, made of wood? But, “hey, baby, let me be ur 1st!!!111!!” signed, hunkydude47 is a little past the pale, no? ---
**Author:** ![Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9adbd/32.png) [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fell_through_the_Ice)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/27 "2009-01-05T23:50:23Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I was wondering - is there really that much difference in prowling for 15 year old girls, versus for 18-year-olds? I can’t really answer all your questions, but if it helps any, the other common trait with these guys is hoping the victims don’t “have any hair down there” yet. Which is a trait usually associated with children who have not yet achieved puberty. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/28 "2009-01-05T23:56:08Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > The difference, in my mind, lies in the severity of the consequences of a successful crime. If someone steals my car, I can take the insurance money and buy another one. If someone molests a child, the child will likely be messed up for a good chunk of his/her life. The consequences are severe enough that it’s important to catch such predators _before_ anyone’s a victim. Theres a difference between molesting a child and having sex with a willing teenager. Im sure a 13yo that has sex with a 30yo would regret it, but i strongly disagree that the child will be messed up for “a good chunk of his/her life”, hell if we are talking about a male i have a hard time believing it would be a negative experience at all. The “to catch a predator” guys aren’t pretending to be five year olds, hell in one episode they were using pictures of miss america as their bait. The major problem i have with this is it makes people think they are getting rid of “child molesters” when in reality its just sick or lonely creepy people. Child molesters are uncles, friends, neighbors, sometimes parents or siblings, NOT creepy internet guys in the VAST mayority of cases. Making people worry about the wrong things is not the way to protect children. ---
**Author:** ![Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9adbd/32.png) [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fell_through_the_Ice)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/29 "2009-01-05T23:56:19Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > What are we, made of **wood**? Um…oh nevermind. 😃 p.s. Interesting comment/username juxtaposition. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/30 "2009-01-06T00:04:25Z")
Yeah. I uh … planned that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9adbd/32.png) [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fell_through_the_Ice)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/31 "2009-01-06T17:37:35Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Im sure a 13yo that has sex with a 30yo would regret it, but i strongly disagree that the child will be messed up for “a good chunk of his/her life”, Really? ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/32 "2009-01-06T18:35:01Z")
I’m glad I hate children. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/33 "2009-01-06T18:46:43Z")
> [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](#): > > Really? Uh, yes really. We are talking about consensual sex here, and while i understand its not legally valid and why it is that way i just don’t understand why anyone thinks they are so terribly harmed by it. I’m not saying its a good idea and it should be encouraged by any means, just that a kid who makes a bad choice and sleeps with some creep is not fucked up for life because of it even in the very likely case that they come to regret it later. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/34 "2009-01-06T18:49:28Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’m fine with cops posing as kids in Internet chat rooms to trap child molesters, but I’m kinda leery of the ‘bait car’ stuff to trap car thieves. > > The difference, in my mind, lies in the severity of the consequences of a successful crime. If someone steals my car, I can take the insurance money and buy another one. If someone molests a child, the child will likely be messed up for a good chunk of his/her life. The consequences are severe enough that it’s important to catch such predators _before_ anyone’s a victim. > > Similarly when someone makes noises about needing a hit man. Far better for them to get tossed into the pokey after contacting a cop posing as a ‘hit man’ than finding a real one, and getting imprisoned after their intended victim is successfully bumped off. > > But leaving a bicycle out…that’s just ridiculous. Whoever steals an unlocked bicycle left in a public place, is only trivially stealing it from its owner, because the owner’s never going to see it again even if they let someone else do the honors. I am of the opposite view. “Entrap” someone for car or bicylce theft and it aint gonna ruin thier life. “Entrap” some for trying (possibly) to get “some young stuff” and their life is pretty much ruined. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/35 "2009-01-06T18:59:44Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Any sympathy I feel for them is mitigated by the fact that they were trying to contact minors for the purpose of having sex with them. Not that I’m a big fan of the stings. Or perhaps they thought that the person was just pretending to be a sexy teen (many are) and were just going along for the fantasy. OTOH, is it so evil for a teen to contact another teen “for the purpose of having sex with them”? A 19yo contacting a 17yo? Or as astro sez "is that apparently there are a number of surprisingly young teen girls who are quite sexual (ie horny) and want older male attention. " ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/36 "2009-01-06T19:22:59Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > And I have a suggestion for improving statistics on convictions for theft: the police should scatter around apparently valuable objects, keep such objects under surveillance, and pounce on anyone who picks up and walks off with said objects. For example, leave some nice cars unlocked in bad neighbourhoods, to trap car thieves. Why wouldn’t that work? I saw something on TV once (I think a local news show or something) that showed cops doing just that. They’d leave a car sitting around with the keys in it, then arrest anyone who tried to steal it. It was surprsing how many would try. I think it’s legally different from the Perverted Justice bust becuase the people stealing the cars really are stealing the cars. They’re not just planning to steal a car that they think exists but doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/37 "2009-01-06T19:24:10Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I am of the opposite view. > > “Entrap” someone for car or bicylce theft and it aint gonna ruin thier life. > > “Entrap” some for trying (possibly) to get “some young stuff” and their life is pretty much ruined. As well it should be, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/38 "2009-01-06T19:28:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > As well it should be, in my opinion. I agree. IFF the “entrapment” is about as on the up and up as it possibly can be. When someones life is on the line, I hold the standards of legal system to a much higher standard of “rightness”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/39 "2009-01-06T19:41:59Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > These decisions are from the Indiana Court of Appeals. The Indiana Supreme Court still has a shot at getting it right in the \*Gibbs \*case or a subsequent one. Apparently the Indiana Supremes declined to review this case, so it’s “…a subsequent one…” at this point. Needless to say, I agree with your comments and with the dissent in _Gibbs_. _Gibbs_’ result is apparently compelled by an Indiana Court of Appeals decision from last year, _Aplin_. I’m especially disturbed by the following language in the majority opinion: > [@](#): > > The State concedes Aplin is on point but argues it was incorrectly decided. We, however, believe that Aplin was correctly decided. This is especially so since the Indiana Supreme Court denied transfer in Aplin on December 4, 2008. In other words, the Court of Appeals says, Aplin is right because our Supreme Court didn’t take the case and overturn it. But the dissent points out: > [@](#): > > Denial of transfer has no precedential value or legal effect other than to terminate the litigation between the parties, and does not necessarily indicate the Supreme Court‟s agreement with this court‟s opinion. Wishard Memorial Hosp. v. Kerr, 846 N.E.2d 1083, 1088 n.1 (Ind. Ct. App. 2006). See Ludy v. State, 784 N.E.2d 459, 460 (Ind. 2003), where our Supreme Court unanimously adopted a new rule of law one year after it had denied transfer in a case presenting precisely the same argument. The general proposition at issue is whether the crime of attempt can be satisfied without an actual victim. The federal courts and other states that have considered the issue have found that it does. Obviously, it’s for Indiana’s courts to say what the law is in Indiana; in this case, the Court of Appeals is using some downright shaky reasoning. I would hope that the Indiana Supremes step up to the plate at some point and shitcan this line of thought. ---
**Author:** ![Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9adbd/32.png) [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fell_through_the_Ice)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929/40 "2009-01-06T19:54:46Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Uh, yes really. We are talking about consensual sex here, Uh, no we’re not. By law a child cannot “consent” to sex because a child cannot understand the repercussions of said act. So if a 13 year girl old is psychologically manipulated into having sex with a 55 year old, who not only impregnantes her but also gives her multiple STDs (cus the kid had no idea about condoms), that’s no big deal? That won’t mess the kid up for “a good chunk of his/her life”? If you really believe that, you really need to [Chris Hanson]_go have a seat over there_.[/Chris Hanson] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/courts-unwinding-chris-hansen-style-net-sex-sting-convictions-without-actual-victims/479929.md?page=3)