# Cousins Marrying **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [October 1, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085 "2004-10-01T19:56:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/21 "2004-10-03T18:33:49Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > Well, the ancient Egyptian Pharoahs married their sisters, and where are they today? … Probably the same place _all_ ancient peoples are. ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/22 "2004-10-04T00:16:18Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > Well, the ancient Egyptian Pharoahs married their sisters, and where are they today? … I’ve studied the genealogy of the Ptolemies (the last Egyptian Pharaonic dynasty) pretty in depth, and truthfully, even though they were inbred (the latter Ptolemies especially), it’s hard to tell when the incest gave rise to mad, deformed children and when they were just plain insane and misshapen regardless. For instance, one of the most notorious members of the dynasty, Ptolemy VIII Tryphon, was grossly obese and bloodthirsty, but he was also intelligent and not at all inbred – his mother was a princess of Syria, only very distantly related to his father. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/23 "2004-10-04T00:23:04Z")
The Ptolemys were indeed as inbred as you can be – generations of brother-sister marriage – no-one else royal enough, don’cha know? And Cleopatra VII, the last of 'em, was brilliant, though a good deal less beautiful than legend says. ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/24 "2004-10-04T02:15:15Z")
> [@John W. Kennedy](#): > > The Ptolemys were indeed as inbred as you can be – generations of brother-sister marriage – no-one else royal enough, don’cha know? And Cleopatra VII, the last of 'em, was brilliant, though a good deal less beautiful than legend says. I count 14 incestuous marriages among the Ptolemies, most brother/sister, a couple uncle/niece. Of these, 9 produced offspring. The incestuous unions were: Ptolemy Keraunos = Arsinoe II (half brother/half sister, no children) Ptolemy II = Arsinoe II (brother/sister, no children) Ptolemy IV = Arsinoe III (brother/sister, one child\*) Ptolemy VI = Kleopatra II (brother sister, four children) Ptolemy VIIII - Kleopatra II (brother/sister, one child) Ptolemy VIIII = Kleopatra III (uncle/niece, five children) Ptolemy IX = Kleopatra IV (brother/sister\*\*, two children\*\*\*) Ptolemy IX = Kleopatra Selene (brother/sister, one child) Ptolemy X Alexander = Kleopatra Selene (brother/sister, one child) Ptolemy X Alexander = Berenike III (uncle/niece, one child) Ptolemy XI Alexander II = Berenike III (half brother/half sister, no children) Ptolemy XII Dionysos = Kleopatra V Tryphaena (uncle/niece, five children) Kleopatra VII = Ptolemy XIII (brother/sister, no children) Kleopatra VII = Ptolemy XIV (brother/sister, no children) - There is a possibility Ptolemy V’s true biological mother was not Queen Arsinoe at all, but his father’s mistress Agathoklea. \*\* The only recorded brother/sister love match among the Ptolemies. \*\*\* She was probably the mother of his sons Ptolemy XII and Ptolemy of Cyprus. See Christopher Bennet’s excellent [website](http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Egypt/). In addition, Ptolemy I married several ladies unrelated to himself, Ptolemy II’s first wife (and the mother of his children) was an unrelated Thracian princess, Ptolemy III married his half-first cousin, Ptolemy V married an unrelated Syrian princess, and the famous Cleopatra VII married Julius Caesar and Marc Antony. Several Ptolemaic princesses married out to their Syrian cousins – in fact, Kleopatra Selene married her own nephew! He was the son of her elder sister by her second husband, the King of Syria, the only known aunt/nephew marriage among the Ptolemies. That union produced two sons, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/25 "2004-10-04T17:02:28Z")
> [@King Eumenes II of Pergamum](#): > > What % of genes do they get from each shared ancestor? How much increase is there of getting the duplicated recessive gene? Since portions of genes “cross over” during gamete production, it’s impossible (short of DNA analysis) to say how much of a given gene came from a particular ancestor. That is: the chromosone seven you got from your father is actually a combination of the sevens he got from his parents, instead of being just one or the other. Likewise, whatever chromosone seven you may pass on to a little Pergamumbler will be a mixture of your two chromosone sevens. So the degree of genetic relationship between two people will vary from the “nominal” degree of relationship. Speaking of intermarriage, through my genealogical research I’ve come across some (distant!) kin in 19th century Ohio who raised inbreeding to an art form. Some of ‘em were related to each other as first, second _and_ third cousin (and if I recall, man and wife). Tho’ to judge from the vital records, with no ill effect on the bloodline. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/26 "2004-10-04T18:23:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Surely, there’s some degree of consanguinuity at which risks cannot be ignored . . . Singing, \*It’s incestuous, this consanguinuity, Incestuous, this consanguinuity – That’s a big, long word, consanguinuity. Why did Jerry Lee marry little Myra? 'Cause he had Great Balls of Fire-a. \* OK, so it’s not really incestuous. I couldn’t think of anything that sounded closer to “Istanbul.” And I found out that “consanguinuity” is really hard to type. RR ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/27 "2004-10-04T19:03:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* The only recorded brother/sister love match among the Ptolemies. Beg pardon? ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/28 "2004-10-04T20:35:14Z")
Note that breeding with close relatives increases the chance of expressing a recessive gene due to the greater chance of both partners having the same recessive gene and passing it on to their children. Recessive genes are not all detrimental, so it can result in children with genetic advantage as well as your stereotypical slack-jawed imbecils. ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/29 "2004-10-04T23:22:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Beg pardon? Ptolemy IX and his sister Kleopatra IV eloped in secret. This earned them the ire of their formidable mother, Kleopatra III, who had them forcibly divorced and exiled Kleopatra IV. Ptolemy IX remarried his other sister, Kleopatra Selene (a choice made by their mother) and Kleopatra IV escaped to Syria, where she married their cousin Kyzikenos. Kleopatra IV and Kyzikenos had one son before he was driven out by the forces of his half-brother, Grypos. Kleopatra was captured by Grypos, and murdered by her jealous sister Tryphaena (Grypos’ wife). Tryphaena was apparently worried that Kleopatra would work her feminine wiles on Grypos. Tryphaena was executed in turn by Kyzikenos when he took power again. Ptolemy IX and Selene had divorced by this time; she had gone on to a brief marriage to their brother Ptolemy Alexander, then another, even briefer marriage to Grypos. Kyzikenos married Selene in turn but died suddenly afterward, so she married his son (her nephew!) the teenaged Antiochus Pius. This makes Selene the wife of every major male player in this drama. And that’s the condescended version of this saga! Anyway, Ptolemy IX and Kleopatra IV are the only Ptolemaic sibling love match known to me. It’s sometimes suggested their remote ancestor Ptolemy II was seduced by his sister, Arsinoe II, but it’s more likely that their marriage was based on politics then romance. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/30 "2004-10-05T06:55:29Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > And that’s the condescended version of this saga! I take it you mean “condensed.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/31 "2004-10-05T14:35:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Ptolemy IX and his sister Kleopatra IV eloped in secret. This earned them the ire of their formidable mother, Kleopatra III, who had them forcibly divorced and exiled Kleopatra IV. Ptolemy IX remarried his other sister, Kleopatra Selene (a choice made by their mother) and Kleopatra IV escaped to Syria, where she married their cousin Kyzikenos. > > Kleopatra IV and Kyzikenos had one son before he was driven out by the forces of his half-brother, Grypos. Kleopatra was captured by Grypos, and murdered by her jealous sister Tryphaena (Grypos’ wife). Tryphaena was apparently worried that Kleopatra would work her feminine wiles on Grypos. Tryphaena was executed in turn by Kyzikenos when he took power again. > > Ptolemy IX and Selene had divorced by this time; she had gone on to a brief marriage to their brother Ptolemy Alexander, then another, even briefer marriage to Grypos. Kyzikenos married Selene in turn but died suddenly afterward, so she married his son (her nephew!) the teenaged Antiochus Pius. This makes Selene the wife of every major male player in this drama. And that’s the condescended version of this saga! Good Lord, somebody get me legal and find out if anyone has an option on the rights! And get Joan Collins’ and Heather Locklear’s agents on the phone! ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_Palmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@Frank\_Palmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_Palmer)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/32 "2004-10-05T20:16:34Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > Under the full faith and credit clause of the US Constitution, a marriage valid and legal in one state must be recognized by other states - unless by so doing it would be against the public policy of that state. The latter was used by an appellate court (re homosexual marriage) and not SCOTUS, so it is questionable whether that would be a valid exception. I don’t know if this ever came up, but that’s the general rule. Well, before that the courts (SCotUS, if I recall correctly) ruled on interrracial marriages. They were then against the public policy of the state involved, and the ruling was that they had to recognise one if it were performed in a state in which it was legal. Still, the court has a long history of announcing principles and then ignoring them. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_Palmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@Frank\_Palmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_Palmer)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/33 "2004-10-05T20:31:45Z")
While the facts in the column were accurate (as far as I know), the mention of other cultures was a less relevant than it ight seem. How do harmful recessives get into the gene pool? They come from mutations. How do they get out of the gene pool? They get expressed (somebody has two copies of the harmful allele), and the person bearing those two copies – conosequently – has fewer than usual children. He might die before childbearing age; he might not attract a mate; he might have fewer than the usual number of childrent for some other reason. Those are the only possibilities – otherwise, it’s not really a harmful allele from mother nature’s perspective. Well, when there is fequent interbreeding, then the alleles present are more frequently expressed. If not, the alleles present are less frequently expressed. Assuming mutations are a constant frequency, then the populations with less inbreeeding will have a smaller fraction of their harmful recessives expressed. Therefore, they will have smaller fraction removed from the gene pool. Therefore the number in the gene pool will increase until the numbers are large enough so that the fraction expressed equals the number produced by mutation. Put another way, cousins marrying – even siblings marrying – endanger their own children, but – on average – improve the gene pool for the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/34 "2004-10-05T22:13:05Z")
> [@Frank Palmer](#): > > Still, the court has a long history of announcing principles and then ignoring them. Care to back that up (including from \*Shephard’s Citators),\*Frank? ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/35 "2004-10-05T22:30:48Z")
_Stare decisis_ is very important, but as we all know, SCOTUS sometimes changes its collective mind, particularly since the individual minds may be different and the times may be different. IIRC it was an appellate court case. SCOTUS may or may not agree. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/36 "2004-10-07T16:22:34Z")
Say it ain’t so! Our Master is a Shelbyvillean! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Davemark1967](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Davemark1967](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Davemark1967)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2004, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/37 "2004-10-12T22:44:09Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > In [the column about cousins marrying](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/041001.html), Cecil states: > I believe that the flak over this marriage had more to do with the fact that his bride was 13 years old than it had to do with the two of them being cousins. Funny, my buddy and I were talking about this last night & how he was portrayed so unfairly in the movie with Dennis Quaid. I agree that the fact his cousin was 13 is the real big issue. Sometimes, a cousin can be so far removed. Personally though, I don’t agree in marrying your cousin, under any conditions: Unless of course she looks like Sharon Stone. Dave [http://www.thelivingweb.net](http://www.thelivingweb.net) The Internets Super Portal ---
**Author:** ![Hadrian0117](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Hadrian0117](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hadrian0117)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/38 "2004-10-26T18:33:01Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > What about in England? That’s where all the trouble started, after all. The minimum age for marriage in the UK’s been 16 since 1929. Before that it was 12 for girls 14 for boys. Those ages come from common law which comes from canon law which comes form Roman civil law. Unlike England & Wales in Scotland youv’e never needed parental consent if your under age! Until 1929 is was perfectly legal for a 12 yr old girl and her 14 yr old boyfriend to runoff and get married. How did Jerry Lee get her parents to say yes? ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/39 "2004-10-26T18:52:55Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] Most websites confirm that Jerry Lee Lewis married his _second_ cousin. This one, for example: [http://www.classicbands.com/jerrylee.html](http://www.classicbands.com/jerrylee.html) Marrying your first cousin was still pretty much a social taboo in much of the rural South in the 1950’s. I was surprised to learn that it is even lawful in some states: I was married to a first cousin of mine (now divorced). To get married we had to go to Virginia, as Michigan doesn’t allow first cousins to marry. Virginia (at least at that time) also had no blood test requirements, and no waiting period. My research at the time found that most of the states that allowed first cousin marriages were in the south (I believe a few were in the north on the East coast. No western states allowed it.) It certainly can’t be that taboo if so many states still legally permit it. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085/40 "2004-10-26T18:55:48Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > In [the column about cousins marrying](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/041001.html), Cecil states: > I believe that the flak over this marriage had more to do with the fact that his bride was 13 years old than it had to do with the two of them being cousins. Yep. Had she been 23 the press wouldn’t have noticed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cousins-marrying/267085.md?page=3)