# Cowards Attack the Dead **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 30, 2007, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049 "2007-05-30T12:24:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/81 "2007-05-31T15:39:49Z")
Fair enough. Let’s just leave it as that it will be seen as unpatriotic by most people, and horribly disrespectful by nearly all. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/82 "2007-05-31T16:25:26Z")
**Mr Moto** As far as the flag-burning aspect of this incident, I don’t find it offensive in and of itself. I like the fact that here in America you _can_ burn a flag. However, I do _not_ think that gives you the right to steal someone _else’s_ flag and burn it when no one is looking because you are too chicken-shit to do it in broad daylight. Many years ago, I remember a D-Day veteran being interviewed and he was asked if there should be an amendment making flag-burning illegal and he said “No. That’s the kind of mentality that we were _fighting_”. Wow - that’s _really_ powerful coming from a D-Day veteran. I also brought that up because let’s suppose these vandals were in Nazi Germany. Would they have wanted to create the same “mischief”? (burninng swastikas and planting American flags on the graves of Nazi war dead). I _highly_ doubt it for 3 reasons: 1. I really don’t think they were trying to make any kind of political statement. 2. If you got caught, as upsetting as it is to face an angry group of US Veterans, I think the Nazi government would have taken an even dimmer, harsher view of this act. 3. As others have said, I don’t exactly think these vandals are the bravest of souls. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/83 "2007-05-31T17:59:17Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] And yet I’ve seen you call out the behavior of certain politicians as being un-American. Why should you care, if your loyalties are more global than that? [/QUOTE] When you responded to **mhendo** @81, were you (among other things) retracting this question? No point in my dropping bombs on an abandoned position, after all. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/84 "2007-05-31T18:24:21Z")
Let’s just call it a difference of opinion that doesn’t matter much in relation to the incident in question. I don’t think it would be productive to pursue further which of us is more pissed off over an incident universally condemned. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/85 "2007-05-31T18:27:42Z")
I will note, though, that the local authorities there say they are treating the incident as a hate crime. Certainly the swastikas come into play on that one. From the statute I cited above, hate crime charges kick this up to a felony. Any opinions on the appropriateness of this - even as an opening gambit in prosecution? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/86 "2007-05-31T19:29:29Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] I will note, though, that the local authorities there say they are treating the incident as a hate crime. Certainly the swastikas come into play on that one. From the statute I cited above, hate crime charges kick this up to a felony. Any opinions on the appropriateness of this - even as an opening gambit in prosecution? [/QUOTE] Not me. I don’t have strong or particularly informed opinions about hate crimes issues in general, so I’ll leave that debate to them that do. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/87 "2007-05-31T19:30:20Z")
Oh, god. A hate crime? Has the right lost one its few remaining redeemable qualities — opposition to nonsense like hate crime laws? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/88 "2007-05-31T19:39:35Z")
Well, the law is on the books, so the time to oppose it would have been before the thing presumably was passed, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/89 "2007-05-31T19:43:17Z")
Was it a referendum? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/90 "2007-05-31T19:46:31Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] Um, Goofy? “Unlawful” doesn’t equal “cowardly” either, any more than “lawful” equals “brave.” These words actually have meanings other than what you invent for your own personal use. [/quote] You are rapidly approaching the level of unmitigated jerk. I have not invented any meanings for the words described and I certainly haven’t done that for my own personal use. Had you the reading comprehension skills of anyone past kindergarten you would clearly see that I did not limit my description in that response to the simple fact of an act being unlawful or lawful. > [@](#): > > And you still have yet to provide any evidence of fighting dead, as the thread title clearly implied. People like you give Orcas Island a bad name. You are a liar in addition to being a jerk. Unless you can prove that the graves vandalized have living people interred, then it is quite clear that the dead were attacked in the case at hand. No matter how deeply steeped in a genre of fantasy your mind is, my thread title is neither misleading nor indicative of the dead rising from the grave to fight. I am not from Orcas Island nor do I live anywhere close to it (I reside thousands of miles away). The people who “give Orcas Island a bad name” are those who attacked the graves of certain dead people and thus did, in fact, attack the dead. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/91 "2007-05-31T20:00:28Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Was it a referendum? [/QUOTE] No. Passed by the state legislature in 1993. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/92 "2007-05-31T20:01:46Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] I will note, though, that the local authorities there say they are treating the incident as a hate crime. Certainly the swastikas come into play on that one. From the statute I cited above, hate crime charges kick this up to a felony. Any opinions on the appropriateness of this - even as an opening gambit in prosecution? [/QUOTE] Well, i’m on record here, on multiple occasions, as having a general opposition to hate crime legislation. I’ve always believed that we should punish bad acts, not bad thoughts. I realize that there are grey areas here, and i find some of the arguments for hate crime legislation quite compelling. IIRC, **Miller** put forward some very strong arguments for having such legislation to cover certain situations in a recent thread where we discussed the issue. But, while i appreciate those arguments, and don’t consider myself completely rigid on the issue, i still maintain a general opposition to hate crime laws. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/93 "2007-05-31T20:03:30Z")
I’m of that opinion as well. However, I’m also of the opinion that people ought to live by the laws they pass. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/94 "2007-05-31T20:18:26Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] No. Passed by the state legislature in 1993. [/QUOTE] Well then, fat lotta good opposition will do you, unless you have a state senator in your pocket. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/95 "2007-05-31T21:45:44Z")
[QUOTE=Gundam\_Cricket] … I guess I just have the undead too much to the forefront of my mind. [/QUOTE] I understand the undead think the frontal lobes are the filet mignon of the brain. They tend not to be in the back of your mind, the brain stem being a stem after all! CMC fnord! Now where’s that brain eatin’ zombie smiley? ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/96 "2007-05-31T22:14:23Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] You are rapidly approaching the level of unmitigated jerk. I have not invented any meanings for the words described and I certainly haven’t done that for my own personal use. Had you the reading comprehension skills of anyone past kindergarten you would clearly see that I did not limit my description in that response to the simple fact of an act being unlawful or lawful. [/quote] Yes, but none of the rest of your description made any sense either. > [@](#): > > A Soldier choosing to perform his lawfully assigned task in the conditions which provide the greatest chance of successful completion is not cowardly. He is attempting to do something that is (a) lawful, (b) part of his job, his mission, and (c) something for which he will (or at least should) be praised by his higher-ups for completing it. Someone who sneaks around under the cover of darkness to avoid detection of their crime while they’re committing it is certainly a coward. You argue that a soldier isn’t cowardly while using cover of night because it’s part of their mission. Well, what of it? Those kids took on a mission, to piss people off, which they completed successfully. They chose to perform that mission in conditions that provided the greatest chance of successful completion. So there’s no difference there. Your other argument, that a soldier isn’t cowardly because their actions earn praise from their superiors, also appears to be a unique personal definition of the term. How does the approval of authorities make an act less cowardly? This is an entirely meaningless distinction as well. > [@](#): > > You are a liar in addition to being a jerk. Unless you can prove that the graves vandalized have living people interred, then it is quite clear that the dead were attacked in the case at hand. No matter how deeply steeped in a genre of fantasy your mind is, my thread title is neither misleading nor indicative of the dead rising from the grave to fight. > > I am not from Orcas Island nor do I live anywhere close to it (I reside thousands of miles away). The people who “give Orcas Island a bad name” are those who attacked the graves of certain dead people and thus did, in fact, attack the dead. Oh sure, and meanwhile thousands of people are no doubt misled into thinking that there’s something special about the coward-stricken dead of Orcas Island. But you take no responsibility for that-- none! “Cowards Attack the Dead!” you bray. “Yes, the dead-- attacked, by cowards! You think you know cowardice? But are you coward enough to attack… _the dead?!_ Come to Orcas Island! You’ve never seen such cowardice in the face of death! See the dead assaulted, by cowards! Only on Orcas Island!” you leer and nod meaningfully. And people are like, “Attacking the dead? What does that have to do with cowardice? These must be some mighty strange dead… Get in the car, honey!” And they drive well over 1700 miles to Washington State, and ride the ferry over to Orcas Island, and there’s nothing. NOTHING! “HEY! These are just ordinary dead! What the hell?! Some flags were knocked over? That’s it?! These dead weren’t even attacked directly! This whole premise was a complete letdown! We openly curse Orcas Island and their shill, that guy who claimed that cowards attacked these dead! Damn you, Orcas Island!” And as the word spreads, the ever-mercurial tourist trade dries to a trickle, and the livelihood of the entire island is torpedoed into oblivion. Parents warn their children to avoid Orcas Island and its “unwholesome folk.” A withered eremite stands at the crossroads, his blind eyes warning off unsuspecting travelers as he chants his guttural prophecies. Nice going, **Monty**. You make the baby Orcas cry. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/97 "2007-05-31T22:31:12Z")
Yep, you’re a complete jerk. You’re also a troll. Enjoy yourself with your foolishness, Terrifel. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/98 "2007-05-31T22:37:52Z")
Orcas forgives you, **Monty**. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/99 "2007-06-01T00:01:01Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] I’m of that opinion as well. However, I’m also of the opinion that people ought to live by the laws they pass. [/QUOTE] I’m glad you pointed that out, given all the people in this thread who have been suggesting that we should not live by the laws we pass. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049/100 "2007-06-01T00:52:46Z")
I was just pointing out that I support the enforcement of laws I might oppose personally. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-attack-the-dead/406049.md?page=6)