# "Coward's way out"; attitudes to suicide
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [January 8, 2012, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776 "2012-01-08T00:00:01Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/1 "2012-01-08T00:00:01Z")
People who take their own lives are sometimes referred to as having “taking the coward’s way out” and I’ve heard it called an inherently selfish act too.
Assuming that you’re not being slowly fed feet first into a meat grinder with no hope of escape or something, where shooting yourself in the head becomes a very sensible thing to do, do you _generally_ (obviously individual cases may vary) consider the act cowardly and/or selfish?
---
### Author:  [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/2 "2012-01-08T00:09:32Z")
Not usually cowardly, but usually ( not always ) selfish. However it is worth noting that sometimes selfish acts aren’t the worse choice. I think you can justify acting selfishly under certain conditions - a lingering, uncomfortable terminal disease could easily qualify.
---
### Author:  [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/3 "2012-01-08T00:11:34Z")
I find the act completely neutral.
The motivation for the act, I might find cowardly and/or selfish, or I might not\*. But given only the act (“suicide”), I have to go with no to both.
\*A man kills himself rather than tell his wife he cheated on her and may have given her HIV? Cowardly \*and \*selfish. A man kills himself after receiving a terminal diagnosis and making sure his insurance and debts are in order and saying goodbye to his family and friends? Neither cowardly nor selfish.
---
### Author:  [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/4 "2012-01-08T00:21:56Z")
from a strictly logical point of view, it fits the definition of “selfish” since it “benefits” no one but the individual in question.
I can’t see it as “cowardly” since IMO it takes a lot of courage to do something that’s just as likely to cause a crippling or deforming injury as it is to kill you.
At any rate, I pretty much dismiss out-of-hand anyone who deems suicide a cowardly act. usually these people claim “I’ve been depressed before and I was able to tough it out!” No, you weren’t depressed. You were sad for a little bit.
---
### Author:  [@Stelios](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stelios)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/5 "2012-01-08T00:43:07Z")
It takes a lot of balls to override your own survival instinct. Calling suicides ‘cowardly’ is, to me, a nonsensical convention. I’ve no idea where it came from or how it stuck. People think suicides haven’t got the guts to face their problems and take the “Easy way out”, but I think any definition of “Easy” which encompasses sticking a shotgun in your mouth is a little too broad to be of any real use. And as for not facing their problems…well, as Doug Stanhope says _“Life is like animal porn. It’s not for everybody. It’s sad when a kid does it because they haven’t given it a chance, but if you’ve sat through over half the movie and haven’t enjoyed a minute of it, chances are there’s probably not going to be some big reveal at the end that makes it all worthwhile. Nobody should blame you for checking out early”._
As for suicide being selfish, it depends on the motive. There are plenty of selfish and unselfish reasons to commit suicide.
---
### Author:  [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/6 "2012-01-08T00:44:51Z")
It’s my belief that for the most part, your body is your own. Do what ye will. The exception would be parents, but it takes a certain kind of someone to kill themselves. That is someone who is in _a lot_ of emotional pain.
If your leg had gangrene and was eating you alive, wouldn’t you cut it off? That’s how suicide is - when life is killing you, anyway.
---
### Author:  [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/7 "2012-01-08T00:47:45Z")
> [@Stelios](#):
>
> It takes a lot of balls to override your own survival instinct. Calling suicides ‘cowardly’ is, to me, a nonsensical convention. I’ve no idea where it came from or how it stuck.
the people who call suicide “cowardly” are themselves selfish people, and what they really mean by “cowardly” is “how dare he/she make me feel bad!”
---
### Author:  [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/8 "2012-01-08T00:51:08Z")
**I consider the act of suicide neither cowardly nor selfish.**
I want to end my life. I have for most of the last 40 years.
I have tried to fix what is broken. I have tried to recreate myself.
I have failed, multiple times. I am exhausted, I want out.
The only reasons I’m still here (besides the fact that I failed at previous attempts) is concern for my mother and for my ex, but mostly because I am a coward and lazy.
I have the middle of February penciled in, but I will probably miss that one too.
---
### Author:  [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/9 "2012-01-08T00:56:58Z")
> [@Foggy](#):
>
> I have the middle of February penciled in, but I will probably miss that one too.
I know you’ve probably heard it all before, but there are people you can talk to, **Foggy**. Please, please see a doctor or even call a helpline before you do anything. Even thinking about it is a sign that things are seriously wrong.
Assuming you’re in the [US](http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/GetHelp/Default.aspx) the linked site is funded by the U.S. DoH, so I’m taking them to be a good place to start - U.S. Dopers can no doubt chip in.
In the [UK](http://www.samaritans.org/) the Samaritans are a good go-to.
---
### Author:  [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/10 "2012-01-08T01:00:29Z")
I agree with **WhyNot**. An action can’t be selfish or cowardly. It’s like saying killing someone is automatically selfish and cowardly. It _can_ be, but not necessarily. Motives matter.
Everyone has a different tolerance to pain. What may not be a big deal to you may be really bad to me. And vice versa. So pain and suffering is relative. Unless you are able to step in someone else’s body and feel what they are feeling, it is very difficult to judge.
Unless you have brought dependents into this world who need your financial and emotional support, you are not obligated to live for anyone.
---
### Author:  [@Mr.Accident](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Accident)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/11 "2012-01-08T01:06:45Z")
I used to consider it both, until about 9 years ago. (And on a side track, wow how times flies. 2003 doesn’t seem like it was 9 years ago.) Back in 2003, in a very short time span, I lost a child to miscarriage, my fiance ended our engagement, and a good friend died. These events left me in a crushing depression. I tried to kill myself a couple of times, but it wouldn’t stick.
Since then, I’ve changed my outlook on suicide. It takes a lot to slit your wrists, OD on OTC meds, blow your brains out, etc. (Not those were what I tried.)
As for being selfish, I don’t consider it selfish to keep on living when you feel like you’re dead inside.
---
### Author:  [@Sudden\_Kestrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sudden_Kestrel)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/12 "2012-01-08T01:21:53Z")
> [@Foggy](#):
>
> **I consider the act of suicide neither cowardly nor selfish.**
>
> I want to end my life. I have for most of the last 40 years.
> I have tried to fix what is broken. I have tried to recreate myself.
> I have failed, multiple times. I am exhausted, I want out.
>
> The only reasons I’m still here (besides the fact that I failed at previous attempts) is concern for my mother and for my ex, but mostly because I am a coward and lazy.
>
> I have the middle of February penciled in, but I will probably miss that one too.
I won’t try to argue with you; I know exactly what you mean. I’ve lived in that place off and on for much of my life, alternating between exhausted resignation and overwhelming anguish. I do hope you can find some kind of relief before you make that ultimate choice, **Foggy**. My heart goes out to you.
I selected “Other,” because I view suicide as rarely cowardly and only sometimes selfish, the latter usually when there are minor children involved who are left to deal with the results of their parent’s choice.
---
### Author:  [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/13 "2012-01-08T01:28:44Z")
Often cowardly and selfish. No man is an island - your actions affect others, and you leave behind family and friends who would be devastated. Parents, children, spouses, etc. Cowardly because it is either a short-sighted response to a bad situation that can be surmounted, or because one simply does not want to deal with hardship or work to improve the situation.
The thing is, the above really only applies to someone who does not have a mental disorder. (Like the local guy who blew his brains out because his restaurant was in financial trouble, and he left behind a wife and children.) Most who commit suicide do have a mental disorder, usually a treatable one, and it is a regrettable failure when someone commits suicide due to one.
---
### Author:  [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/14 "2012-01-08T01:37:59Z")
> [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](#):
>
> Often cowardly and selfish. No man is an island - your actions affect others, and you leave behind family and friends who would be devastated. Parents, children, spouses, etc. Cowardly because it is either a short-sighted response to a bad situation that can be surmounted, or because one simply does not want to deal with hardship or work to improve the situation.
this is ignorant tripe.
> [@](#):
>
> The thing is, the above really only applies to someone who does not have a mental disorder. (Like the local guy who blew his brains out because his restaurant was in financial trouble, and he left behind a wife and children.)
so he couldn’t have had a restaurant in financial trouble _and_ a mental/emotional problem?
> [@](#):
>
> Most who commit suicide do have a mental disorder, usually a treatable one, and it is a regrettable failure when someone commits suicide due to one.
please, just stop.
---
### Author:  [@UFC\_Is\_Sux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UFC_Is_Sux)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/15 "2012-01-08T01:52:22Z")
As some bright spark once put it, I consider it “the most sincere form of self-criticism.”
And I’ve tried twice (rather ineffectually) and failed both times. Do I regret those failures? The jury’s still out on that one, but I won’t get the hat trick in the category.
---
### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/16 "2012-01-08T01:54:07Z")
> [@WhyNot](#):
>
> I find the act completely neutral.
>
> The motivation for the act, I might find cowardly and/or selfish, or I might not\*. But given only the act (“suicide”), I have to go with no to both.
>
> \*A man kills himself rather than tell his wife he cheated on her and may have given her HIV? Cowardly \*and \*selfish. A man kills himself after receiving a terminal diagnosis and making sure his insurance and debts are in order and saying goodbye to his family and friends? Neither cowardly nor selfish.
This.
Suicide is about the _only_ real choice about lifestyle and dying that is entirely personal. I do not think it should be illegal, and I think it should be available to every adult. It would be nice if there was a ‘painless suicide kit’ available.
---
### Author:  [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/17 "2012-01-08T02:23:45Z")
Neither cowardly nor selfish. A suicidal person needs help, not condemnation.
---
### Author:  [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/18 "2012-01-08T02:26:17Z")
> [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](#):
>
> Often cowardly and selfish. No man is an island - your actions affect others, and you leave behind family and friends who would be devastated.
Is it selfish to continue to live knowing you will be a financial and emotional burden to family and friends?
---
### Author:  [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/19 "2012-01-08T02:27:13Z")
> [@aruvqan](#):
>
> . . . I do not think it should be illegal, and I think it should be available to every adult. It would be nice if there was a ‘painless suicide kit’ available.
I’m of very, very mixed feelings regarding the latter… At very least, I’d like some safeguards, some hoops to jump through, a mandatory session of counseling, etc.
But, I guess, this only drives people to “back alley” methods. I certainly don’t want the railroads to be the preferred method of suicide… (Have a little compassion for whoever has to clean up the mess!)
It’s a quality of life issue. If one’s life is too damn painful to bear, then it seems ugly and cruel to compel them to keep living it. But…things can get better… They might invent a really good anti-depressant tomorrow…
And, besides, what’s wrong with a degree of selfishness? I bought doughnuts today, while millions of people are starving. If that degree of selfishness is acceptable, then why would hanging oneself be unacceptable?
---
### Author:  [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776/20 "2012-01-08T03:16:33Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#):
>
> Please, please see a doctor or even call a helpline before you do anything. Even thinking about it is a sign that things are seriously wrong.
> [@Sudden\_Kestrel](#):
>
> I won’t try to argue with you; I know exactly what you mean. I’ve lived in that place off and on for much of my life, alternating between exhausted resignation and overwhelming anguish. I do hope you can find some kind of relief before you make that ultimate choice, **Foggy**. My heart goes out to you.
I appreciate your concern, but I have had help and it didn’t. Here is what I wrote back in August:
> [@I am soo tired and just want this to be over with. (pathetic & depressing)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-soo-tired-and-just-want-this-to-be-over-with-pathetic-depressing/592448/1):
>
> I have had help, it didn’t. Been in & out of therapy since I was 9, the last 15 years (1995-2010) it was continuous with about a dozen or so different medications (I lost count). I guesstimate I have seen some 40 different mental health people in that time (most were just one or two visits), one doctor after 8 years said he couldn’t help me, after two years a hospital run clinic said they couldn’t help me, there have been two Partial Hospitalizations and I applied for ECT (denied). I have been in many different therapy groups and I have done volunteer work (with cats, with people, prefer cats (I would kill to have a cat but that isn’t a good idea)).
>
> No change, no help, so in April 2010, against doctors orders I quit taking all medications and seeing all doctors.
>
> I have contemplated suicide for about 40 years. For much of the past decade or so it’s been a daily thought. I have even made some half-assed weak-assed attempts. My only concern is for my mother and my ex and how it will affect them.
>
> Some people are just broken and nothing can be done for them. I’m one of those people and I want out. With my 50th birthday just a day away it seems like a good time. I like the neatness of living exactly 50 years (or nearly so).
>
> I have tried to deal and failed multiple times. It’s time to act like a man, man up, grow a pair, and just do it.
>
> I just afraid that I’m too fat to climb over the damn railing.
I have done or tired nearly everything people suggested in that thread to no avail.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowards-way-out-attitudes-to-suicide/608776.md?page=2)