# Cowboys and Indians **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 18, 2009, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565 "2009-09-18T06:45:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/1 "2009-09-18T06:45:22Z")
In the past, Native Americans were always, well mostly, portrayed on screen as the bad guys and the cowboys were the goodies who were just trying to transport cattle/goods from A to B. Then this all changed, the Indians were suddenly the good guys and whitey was a land grabbing, whisky dealing, gunslinging bastard. So what brought about this reversal of roles? ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/2 "2009-09-18T06:46:51Z")
Thanksgiving? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/3 "2009-09-18T07:26:48Z")
With the growth of various civil rights movements and increased societal sensitivity, for lack of a better term, it’s become less socially acceptable to portray minority groups in negatively stereotypical roles. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/4 "2009-09-18T07:58:33Z")
And it’s not as if the pancake flipped completely, there were _some_ movies where the Native Americans weren’t the bad guys. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/5 "2009-09-18T09:00:58Z")
Probably also something to do with more people having N.A. ancestors. Or it could be a Hegelian phenomenon 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/6 "2009-09-18T10:29:42Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > And it’s not as if the pancake flipped completely, there were _some_ movies where the Native Americans weren’t the bad guys. Well I did say _mostly_ in my OP ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/7 "2009-09-18T10:52:56Z")
It not like both sides didn’t kill each other. [AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF MA-KA-TAI-ME-SHE-KIA-KIAK, OR BLACK HAWK](http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/7097) ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/8 "2009-09-18T13:17:23Z")
It’s been only a complete flip in one direction. There were many earlier movies that portrayed sympathic Indians. Nowadays, however, there’s no such thing as a villainous Native American. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/9 "2009-09-18T13:31:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Nowadays, however, there’s no such thing as a villainous Native American. Are you sure of that? The Pawnees seem to be the Bad Guys in both **Little Big Man** and **Dances With Wolves** , both very sympathetic portrayals of other Indian groups as seen by white men adopted into the tribe. apparently (although I haven’t seen the series or read the book), they’re the Heavies in **Centennial** , too. I’ve often wondered how the Pawnees feel about this. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/10 "2009-09-18T13:51:39Z")
The video for Iron Maiden’s _Run To The Hills_. What? ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/11 "2009-09-18T13:54:03Z")
Wes Studi’s Magua (Huron) in **Last of the Mohicans** was pretty villainous, what with burning a prisoner alive, attacking after a peace treaty, trying to kill women, etc. Now, granted, he did have his reasons with the loss of his family but he didn’t generate a lot of sympathy through his utter contempt and murderous behaviour. Same with Blue Duck in **Lonesome Dove**. He struck fear, or a knife, through every white man he encountered, other Indians too. He was terror incarnate and again generated little in the way of sympathy. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/12 "2009-09-18T13:59:36Z")
I’d date the change at the post-WWII era. A lot of movie conventions flipped at that time. Movies got much darker and more cynical, and noir developed. It’s been argued, convincingly to me, that noir was a response to the war, an anti “gung ho” realistic look at the way people really behaved. Similarly, movies started attacking inequalities in society and the plight of minority groups. Put the two together and Indians couldn’t serve as blanket bad guys, pardon the pun. Motives of the whites were portrayed more cynically and the humanness of the Indians was finally put on screen. It was a slow transition, so I’m sure you could find exceptions, but the trend never let up. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/13 "2009-09-18T15:32:22Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I’ve often wondered how the Pawnees feel about this. I was talking to a friend a while ago. He watched a lot of old westerns growing up, because the local stations would always put them on because they could get the rights to them cheap, and he mentioned that the Pawnee were always the bad guys in those westerns. When an individual tribe was mentioned, it was almost always the Pawnee. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/14 "2009-09-18T15:35:06Z")
An influential book in changing this perception was [Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bury_My_Heart_at_Wounded_Knee) by Dee Brown (1970). > [@](#): > > Time magazine reviewed the book saying: > > "In the last decade or so, after almost a century of saloon art and horse operas that romanticized Indian fighters and white settlers, Americans have been developing a reasonably acute sense of the injustices and humiliations suffered by the Indians. But the details of how the West was won are not really part of the American consciousness … Dee Brown, Western historian and head librarian at the University of Illinois, now attempts to balance the account. An earlier film that presented a sympathetic view of the Indians was [Cheyenne Autumn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne_Autumn) (1964), by famed Western director John Ford. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/15 "2009-09-18T15:52:36Z")
I like to think that the role reversal came about because people realised that whitey had in fact been an asshole. Breaking of treaties, land grabbing,killing thousands of buffalo just for their tongues and hides, herding the Indians onto reservations instead of allowing them to live their lives as they wanted to and had done for many years. The only reason (IMO) that the redskin saw his arse was because of the above … remember…whitey was the invader of their land ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/16 "2009-09-18T16:01:20Z")
> [@](#): > > An influential book in changing this perception was Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, by Dee Brown (1970). Agreed. Along with Vine deLoria’s _Custer Died for your Sins_ and movies like **Soldier Blue** and **Little Big Man**. Those were also the years of AIM – the American Indian Movement, and their takeover of Alcatraz to highlight the status of the American Indian. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/17 "2009-09-18T16:10:22Z")
Agreed with what’s already been said - _Little Big Man_ was particularly influential, I think. And don’t forget the famous ad with the crying Indian looking out over the polluted landscape. I just finished Jill Jonnes’s _Eiffel’s Tower_, about the 1889 International Exposition in Paris. Buffalo Bill Cody’s Wild West show came to town during the Expo and was a huge hit. The author talks quite a bit about how Cody, who’d fought the Indians in his Army days, had come to deeply respect them, and treated and paid them well. He even arranged for homesick ones to return to the U.S. when they wanted. Cody was very critical in the press at the time about how poorly Indians had been treated by the U.S. government, and wouldn’t lean on them when Uncle Sam wanted those Indians traveling with him to sign over land back home. The Indians cut quite a swath through Parisian society - it’s an interesting story. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/18 "2009-09-18T17:15:38Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The video for Iron Maiden’s _Run To The Hills_. > > What? I came in here to say the exact same thing. That and maybe Graham Greene. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/19 "2009-09-18T17:44:52Z")
I recall reading a book in the late 1950s or early 1960s about the leaders of the Indian Wars of the late 1880s, starting with the Dakota War of 1862 and ending with the Modoc War, that described the injustices and treaty violations that led to the conflicts. Unfortunately I can’t remember its name. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565/20 "2009-09-18T17:48:09Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > I like to think that the role reversal came about because people realised that whitey had in fact been an asshole. > > Breaking of treaties, land grabbing,killing thousands of buffalo just for their tongues and hides, herding the Indians onto reservations instead of allowing them to live their lives as they wanted to and had done for many years. Right, but there had to have been a time people started thinking that that was a bad thing. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cowboys-and-indians/510565.md?page=2)