# Crab or crabs? (Grammar Question) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 13, 2010, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501 "2010-07-13T04:50:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/21 "2010-07-13T17:05:37Z")
> [@JpnDude](#): > > I’m in the middle of proofreading an English-language book for a Japanese publisher. In one chapter, there is a scene in which the characters are in a Japanese restaurant trying out various dishes. Within the conversation, there are the following sentences: > > In all situations they are referring to the food and not the animal itself. Now, my questions: > > 1. Would you say _ **crab** _ or _ **crabs** _? Please explain your reasoning. It depends on the context – “I like crab” means I like to eat crab meat. “I like crabs” might mean I like them as pets. > [@](#): > > 1. Would you say \*\*\*octopus \*\*\*or _ **octopuses** _? Please explain. “I like octopus” means I like to eat them. “I like octopuses” means I have affection for them. > [@](#): > > 1. Would you say “I want \*\*\*octopus/an octopuses.” \*\*\* If I’m going to eat them, I’d say “I want octopus.” > [@](#): > > 1. Would you say “Do you have _ **it/them** _?” Neither. I’d say “Do you have any [octopus]?” > [@](#): > > 1. How about if the word was _ **shrimp, prawn, clam** _, etc.? Same as above. > [@In\_Winnipeg](#): > > “Octopus” already ends in an “s”, and to say “octopuses” sounds laboured and awkward That’s how plurals ending in _s_ work in English – Bus - buses - “The buses on this route are always breaking down.” Jones - Joneses - “Tell the Joneses down the street that we found their dog.” Congress - Congresses - “John Smith served as a U.S. representative in the 110th and 111th Congresses.” > [@](#): > > and besides, the correct plural is “octopi”. No. Just, no. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/22 "2010-07-13T17:33:46Z")
> [@JpnDude](#): > > 1. Would you say _ **crab** _ or _ **crabs** _? Please explain your reasoning. > > 2. Would you say \*\*\*octopus \*\*\*or _ **octopuses** _? Please explain. > > 3. Would you say “I want \*\*\*octopus/an octopuses.” \*\*\* > > 4. Would you say “Do you have _ **it/them** _?” > > 5. How about if the word was _ **shrimp, prawn, clam** _, etc.? > > Thanks in advance for your time and answer. 1. Crab meat is uncountable, like beef, therefore it should be treated as singular for any type of agreement. 2. I would say “octopi” but more and more I’m seeing “-uses” as being acceptable. “Hippopotamuses” is also acceptable today. 3. The indefinite article “a/an” is never used with plurals. 4. In this question form, you are asking for information that is unknown to the asker at the time of asking, e.g. Is there a post office nearby? In this case, the singular “it” should be used. 5. My answer for #1 should apply here. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/23 "2010-07-13T17:38:04Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > 1. I would say “octopi” but more and more I’m seeing “-uses” as being acceptable. “Hippopotamuses” is also acceptable today. “Octopi” has _never_ been the correct plural for octopus. “Octopuses” is not something those darn kids are doing these days. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/24 "2010-07-13T17:40:25Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > spken like someone who has never steamed up a bushel of crabs, or eaten at a restaurant that serves steamed crabs. Right on, and I say that with pride. I will never eat shellfish. > [@](#): > > Definitely “I will have the large crabs”, but “I will have the crab soup”. Right, but in this case you’re talking about them as discrete things. “Crab” is the foodstuff that’s made from crabs. You can get a plate of crabs, eat a bite of one, then say “I just ate crab.” ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/25 "2010-07-13T18:05:24Z")
1. Would you say _ **crab** _ or _ **crabs** _? Please explain your reasoning. Crab. 1. Would you say \*\*\*octopus \*\*\*or _ **octopuses** _? Please explain. I would say “Octopus, Octopusses, Optopi, Octopods, Octopusarii, Octopodes, …Squid” in as funny a way as I could. 1. Would you say “I want \*\*\*octopus/an octopuses.” \*\*\* I’d probably say “I’ll have the octopus” if it’s a dish and I’m ordering it. 1. Would you say “Do you have _ **it/them** _?” it 1. How about if the word was _ **shrimp, prawn, clam** _, etc.? I’ll have the shrimp, I feel like having shrimp, can I have some of your shrimp? ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/26 "2010-07-13T18:14:44Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Linguistically, “octopi” is just wrong. > [@Chronos](#): > > There is not, however, any language where the plural of “octopus” is “octopi”, so that one is incorrect. > [@acsenray](#): > > “Octopi” has _never_ been the correct plural for octopus. From Merriam-Webster: > [@](#): > > Main Entry: oc·to·pus > Pronunciation: \ˈäk-tə-pəs, -ˌpu̇s > Function: noun > Inflected Form(s): plural oc·to·pus·es or **oc·to·pi** From Random House: > [@](#): > > oc·to·pus   /ˈɒktəpəs/ Show Spelled[ok-tuh-puhs] Show IPA > –noun, plural -pus·es, \*\*-pi \*\* From American Heritage: > [@](#): > > oc·to·pus (ŏk’tə-pəs) > n. pl. oc·to·pus·es or \*\*oc·to·pi \*\* Admittedly, the OED dissents: > [@](#): > > The standard English plural of octopus is octopuses. However , the word octopus comes from Greek, and the Greek plural form is octopodes > > Modern usage of octopodes is so infrequent that many people mistakenly create the erroneous plural form octopi, formed according to rules for Latin plurals. But although _octopi_ may not always have been “correct” English, it pretty much is now. Ultimately – to the dismay of many a pedant – a language rests in the hands of those who speak it. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/27 "2010-07-13T18:27:44Z")
More info on octopuses/octopi/octopodes from [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus) > [@](#): > > The term octopus, pronounced /ˈɒktəpʊs/, is from Greek ὀκτάπους (oktapous), “eight-footed”,[31][32] with plural forms: octopuses /ˈɒktəpʊsɪz/, octopi /ˈɒktəpaɪ/, or octopodes /ɒkˈtɒpədiːz/. Currently, octopuses is the most common form in both the US and the UK; octopodes is rare, and octopi is often objectionable.[33] > > The plural form octopi is often defined as a hypercorrection. The Oxford English Dictionary (2008 Draft Revision)[34] lists octopuses, octopi and octopodes (in that order); it labels octopodes “rare”, and notes that octopi derives from the “apprehension” that octōpūs is a second declension Latin noun, though it is not. It is a Latinization of Greek third-declension masculine oktṓpous (ὀκτώπους, ‘eight-foot’), plural oktṓpodes (ὀκτώποδες). If the word were native to Latin, it would be octōpēs, plural octōpedes, after the pattern of pēs (‘foot’), plural pedēs, analogous to “centipede”.[35] The actual Latin word for octopus and other similar species is polypus, from Greek polýpous (πολύπους, ‘many-foot’); usually the inaccurate plural polypī is used instead of polypodēs. I’m all for octopuses, given that I tend to dislike foreign language plurals. (For instance, it drives me nuts when I hear “stadiums” referred to as “stadia.” Granted, not that often, but I was at one business presentation when this came up repeatedly.) But, when I want to be a pedantic, intellectual smartass, I pull out “octopodes.” ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/28 "2010-07-13T18:34:18Z")
As suggested above. Crabs for individual crabs in their shells, crab for the meat outside the shell. I am buying a bushel of **crabs**. I ate some steamed **crabs** last night I like **crabs** on the half shell. I like\*\* crab \*\*sushi I’m allergic to **crab** Put extra **crab** in my seafood salad. So do you like crab/crabs depends on how they are served. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/29 "2010-07-13T18:45:46Z")
Bad old joke: “Pardon me, miss, do you serve crabs here?” “We serve anybody, sir! Have a seat!” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/30 "2010-07-13T19:01:06Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > Ultimately – to the dismay of many a pedant – a language rests in the hands of those who speak it. Pedant me no pedants. The people largely use “octopuses.” It’s pretty rich that the people in this thread who are propounding a minority usage are taking the stance that “octopuses” is kids with backwards caps and pants down at their knees and then falling back on a descriptivist defense. Talk about arguing in the alternative. The concept of “wrong” and “incorrect” was introduced into this thread by the octopi-anists. If any form is incorrect, it is _octopi_. That’s the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/31 "2010-07-13T19:25:46Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Pedant me no pedants. The people largely use “octopuses.” It’s pretty rich that the people in this thread who are propounding a minority usage are taking the stance that “octopuses” is kids with backwards caps and pants down at their knees and then falling back on a descriptivist defense. Talk about arguing in the alternative. > > The concept of “wrong” and “incorrect” was introduced into this thread by the octopi-anists. If any form is incorrect, it is _octopi_. That’s the issue. I never made a case against _octopuses_. (It’s probably what I’d say, in fact, if I ever needed to describe more than one octopus, which seldom happens.) My point is that _octopi_ has pretty much wriggled its way into being generally accepted as correct as well. Such is the nature of our language. So what if it’s not proper Greek or Latin construction? English ain’t Greek or Latin. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/32 "2010-07-14T01:05:16Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > From Merriam-Webster:From Random House:From American Heritage:Admittedly, the OED dissents:But although _octopi_ may not always have been “correct” English, it pretty much is now. Ultimately – to the dismay of many a pedant – a language rests in the hands of those who speak it. I would say it is recognized as accepted, rather than strictly speaking as “correct.” None of the dictionaries list it as the preferred form, and as you note the OED rejects it. Really, there is no good reason to use octopi, a phony hi-falutin pseudo-foreign plural, rather than octopuses, a normal down-to-earth everyday-type English plural. In fact, using octopi, and even more so “correcting” people who use the preferred form octopuses (to the extent of asserting it is incorrect) is essentially pseudo-pedantry - rather like the supposed rule against ending a sentence with a preposition. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/33 "2010-07-14T01:15:28Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > So what if it’s not proper Greek or Latin construction? English ain’t Greek or Latin. It’s _English,_ and that’s exactly why octopi shouldn’t be used. Why use a non-English (and an incorrect one to boot) plural form when a perfectly good English plural exists? ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/34 "2010-07-14T01:47:58Z")
Heh, here’s more that messes some people up: Antenna/antennae/antennas People/peoples/person/persons (what’s the singular or plural for which ones?) Hair (uncountable)/a hair (countable) data/datum ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/35 "2010-07-14T02:43:50Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Quick! Get me rewrite! > > ME: So you’ll have crabs tomorrow? > BG: Yes. > Me: I can’t get them from you tonight? > BG: No, order tomorrow. > Me: Let me get this straight. You don’t have crabs right now? > BG: No, no have. I think it was more like that actually. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/36 "2010-07-14T12:43:46Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Really, there is no good reason to use octopi, a phony hi-falutin pseudo-foreign plural, rather than octopuses, a normal down-to-earth everyday-type English plural. In fact, using octopi, and even more so “correcting” people who use the preferred form octopuses (to the extent of asserting it is incorrect) is essentially pseudo-pedantry - rather like the supposed rule against ending a sentence with a preposition. > [@Colibri](#): > > It’s _English,_ and that’s exactly why octopi shouldn’t be used. Why use a non-English (and an incorrect one to boot) plural form when a perfectly good English plural exists? Look, I don’t really have an octopus in this fight, and as I noted, I’m more apt to use the _-es_ form myself. The only point I was trying to make is that, with a living language such as English, if enough people recognize a word (or phrase or grammar construction or whatever else) as correct, eventually it will _become_ correct. And at the same time, some people will use their dying breaths to continue to argue that it’s wrong. _Those_ are the ones I consider to be hi-falutin pseudo-pedants. ---
**Author:** ![In\_Winnipeg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a8b319/32.png) [@In\_Winnipeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/In_Winnipeg)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/37 "2010-07-14T16:13:35Z")
Don’t forget the context of the conversation (ordering in a restaurant) brings into play an understood, i.e., that they are ordering meat (if I may be permitted to call it that) to consume. Therefore: “Do you like crab (meat)?” “My father likes octopus (meat).” “I want octopus (meat). Do you have it?” (Although “I want…” would sound childish if said to the waiter in ordering, but less childish if said in discussion with the rest of your party while deciding what to order). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/38 "2010-07-14T16:46:41Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > The only point I was trying to make is that, with a living language such as English, if enough people recognize a word (or phrase or grammar construction or whatever else) as correct, eventually it will _become_ correct. > > And at the same time, some people will use their dying breaths to continue to argue that it’s wrong. Thankfully, octopi hasn’t reached that stage yet. As has been noted, it is rejected by some dictionaries and many usage guides, and even those which include it note that it is the less-preferred form. So at the very least, people should be discouraged from “correcting” the preferred form octopuses to octopi. While some dictionaries may accept it, it’s the kind of thing that makes you look knowledgeable to the ignorant, but ignorant to the knowledgeable. Of course, people can decide for themselves which they prefer to be.😉 ---
**Author:** ![JpnDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/838e76/32.png) [@JpnDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JpnDude)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/39 "2010-07-15T05:50:08Z")
First of all, I’d like to thank everyone who posted here. I guess I wanted confirmation on my original thoughts. Proofreading is one of my freelance jobs here in Japan as a native speaker of English. FWIW, I’m an American from Southern California. Very often Japanese ask me questions concerning English usage and grammar. After answering them, they might come up with “Why is that?” or “What about in this case?” I can usually give them the rule or logic behind why we say things a certain way and they are satisfied or at least informed with what I tell them. However, there are some times when I can’t really explain. In this case, when I had originally sent in my corrections to the Japanese editor of the textbook in question, I answered them this way: > [@](#): > > “Do you like CRAB?” (Since it’s the meat/food, use singular form.) > > “My father likes OCTOPUS.” (Same as above.) > > “I want OCTOPUS. Do you SERVE IT?” (Use “SERVE” as better word choice and “IT” for number agreement.) Then the editor started asking questions about other “foods/meats” such as “shrimp, prawn, clam, etc.” That’s where I drew a blank in the general usage rules. So I came to the SDMB to ask for opinions. I’m glad to see the discussion that developed. Thanks again to everyone for their detailed explanations and examples. Along with looking up some of the links listed here, I’ll be printing this entire thread to use when I’m talking with the editors. The Dopers have done it again! Okagesamadeshita! (PS: That was a typo on #3. Should’ve been “I want an octopus/octopuses.” ) ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501/40 "2010-07-15T17:41:47Z")
> [@In\_Winnipeg](#): > > “Octopus” already ends in an “s”, and to say “octopuses” sounds laboured and awkward, and besides, the correct plural is “octopi”. As well, we are not given a choice between two or more types of octopi. Octopi is just wrong. Octopodes is pedantic. Octopus works. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crab-or-crabs-grammar-question/546501.md?page=3)