# Cracked on UK and US forces at Normandy **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 13, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250 "2013-05-13T18:25:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/41 "2013-05-14T13:46:25Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > also relatively small numbers of French) . _Extremely_ small number of French. There was one bataillon of commandos, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/42 "2013-05-14T13:50:07Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > _Extremely_ small number of French. There was one bataillon of commandos, IIRC. Still, the French force dwarfed the number of Australians who landed which, according to that same Wiki page, was 8. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/43 "2013-05-14T22:47:03Z")
> [@bump](#): > > There’s very little mention of Saipan, Peleliu, Tarawa, Cape Gloucester, Burma, the Phillipines, the Aleutians, Coral Sea, Truk, Leyte Gulf/Samar etc… I know about Tarawa. “Who led the bloody slaughter in Tarawa In Tarawa, in Tarawa Who led the bloody slaughter While McArthur walked on water? The United States Marines!” (Oscar Brand, “[The United States Marines](http://www.horntip.com/mp3/1960s/1960_tell_it_to_the_marines__oscar_brand_(LP)/08_the_united_states_marines.htm)”) ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/44 "2013-05-14T23:30:32Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > The best way I’ve had WWII explained on college was simple: Americans paid in cash, Brits paid in time, and the Soviets paid in blood. And Filipinos paid in Filipinas. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/45 "2013-05-15T01:04:22Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > What kept the Germans from reinforcing the Normandy front was, overwhelmingly, [Western] Allied airpower. That, and Hitler’s refusal to release the Panzer reserve until way too late - that too largely due to Fortitude. I just had a thought. The Germans were by this time used to attacks from ridiculously huge numbers of Russians, dozens of divisions at a time. Perhaps they simply couldn’t believe that all the Allies could manage on D-day were 5 land and 3 para divisions as their main effort? It had to be a diversion? ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/46 "2013-05-15T03:11:58Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > That, and Hitler’s refusal to release the Panzer reserve until way too late - that too largely due to Fortitude. > > I just had a thought. The Germans were by this time used to attacks from ridiculously huge numbers of Russians, dozens of divisions at a time. Perhaps they simply couldn’t believe that all the Allies could manage on D-day were 5 land and 3 para divisions as their main effort? It had to be a diversion? One thing I’ve gotten from my time on the Internet (and I mean no offense to Western Europeans by this) is that it seems that people from Western European countries don’t really grasp how _big_ the USA is (and, in the context of this discussion, how _big_ the USSR was). Seriously, most Western European countries are similar in size to a single US state. I think Germany honestly didn’t comprehend how many men the US and the USSR had to throw at them. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/47 "2013-05-15T03:32:55Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > I know about Tarawa. > > “Who led the bloody slaughter in Tarawa > In Tarawa, in Tarawa > Who led the bloody slaughter > While McArthur walked on water? > The United States Marines!” > > (Oscar Brand, “[The United States Marines](http://www.horntip.com/mp3/1960s/1960_tell_it_to_the_marines__oscar_brand_(LP)/08_the_united_states_marines.htm)”) Plenty of people know about Tarawa, but certainly not because of some 1950s era war movie with John Wayne, Gregory Peck or William Holden, like they do a lot of other WWII situations. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/48 "2013-05-15T06:35:35Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > One thing I’ve gotten from my time on the Internet (and I mean no offense to Western Europeans by this) is that it seems that people from Western European countries don’t really grasp how _big_ the USA is (and, in the context of this discussion, how _big_ the USSR was). Seriously, most Western European countries are similar in size to a single US state. I think Germany honestly didn’t comprehend how many men the US and the USSR had to throw at them. What? Because they can’t count population numbers? And the size if a US state is meaningless if its just full of cows. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/49 "2013-05-15T12:45:38Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > One thing I’ve gotten from my time on the Internet (and I mean no offense to Western Europeans by this) is that it seems that people from Western European countries don’t really grasp how _big_ the USA is (and, in the context of this discussion, how _big_ the USSR was). Seriously, most Western European countries are similar in size to a single US state. Anecdotally, our German exchange student in the 1980s was _amazed_ at how long we could drive and still be in _the same state_. He said, “in Europe we’d have gone through more than one country by now!” He was even further amazed that we could drive across a state border without some sort of checkpoint or any documentation. > [@SanVito](#): > > What? Because they can’t count population numbers? I think his point is not that they can’t count or estimate, but that they didn’t fully internalize the knowledge, or were engaging in some denial. > [@SanVito](#): > > And the size if a US state is meaningless if its just full of cows. What if they’re _stampeding?_ Nazi Germany has no chance against a few million panicked Longhorns! Let the C-Day invasion begin! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/50 "2013-05-15T13:11:34Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > One thing I’ve gotten from my time on the Internet (and I mean no offense to Western Europeans by this) is that it seems that people from Western European countries don’t really grasp how _big_ the USA is (and, in the context of this discussion, how _big_ the USSR was). Seriously, most Western European countries are similar in size to a single US state. I think Germany honestly didn’t comprehend how many men the US and the USSR had to throw at them. This is silly. Hitler knew very well what US entry into the war in Europe could mean. What he underestimated was the number of Americans who were politically motivated to intervene. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/51 "2013-05-15T13:21:47Z")
The way some Europeans don’t grasp the size of the US was summed up with an English couple I encountered some years back. They were in Philadelphia, enjoying the museums, and they quipped that they had made reservations for dinner that evening. In Niagra Falls. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/52 "2013-05-15T22:26:12Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > What? Because they can’t count population numbers? > > And the size if a US state is meaningless if its just full of cows. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This is silly. Hitler knew very well what US entry into the war in Europe could mean. What he underestimated was the number of Americans who were politically motivated to intervene. S’what I get for posting when I’m drinking. The idea going through my brain when I was posting had to do with Germany underestimating our (and the USSR’s) ability and _willingness_ to keep throwing men at them until the Nazis were beaten. It didn’t make it all the way to my fingers. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/53 "2013-05-16T00:08:57Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > What if they’re _stampeding?_ Nazi Germany has no chance against a few million panicked Longhorns! Let the C-Day invasion begin! A recent episode of Perfect Storms on the Hitler Channel (though what the German invasion of Russia has to do with a meteorological storm I’ll never know, but it _is_ the Hitler Channel, after all, so who can argue) says the German force in Russia included 600,000 horses. I’m skeptical, but maybe Cracked would agree. A few million stampeding Longhorns would have made all the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/54 "2013-05-16T00:58:49Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > A recent episode of Perfect Storms on the Hitler Channel (though what the German invasion of Russia has to do with a meteorological storm I’ll never know, but it _is_ the Hitler Channel, after all, so who can argue) says the German force in Russia included 600,000 horses. I’m skeptical, but maybe Cracked would agree. It’s true. It’s easy to get the impression that WW2 was a highly mechanized war, but it wasn’t. Only ~15% or so of German divisions during the war were panzer, panzer grenadier or motorized, the rest were infantry. The infantry had to march everywhere it went (outside of movement by railroad), supply was almost entirely moved by horse, and the artillery was horse drawn. From [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_in_World_War_II): > [@](#): > > German Army entered World War II with 514,000 horses,[13] and over the course of the war employed, in total, 2.75 million horses and mules;[16] average number of horses in the Army reached 1.1 million. The US and UK were able to entirely motorize supply outside of a few cases were donkeys were preferred due to their ability to go places vehicles couldn’t, but most divisions were infantry who again had to hoof it wherever they went. The difference compared to Germany was that their supplies were moved by trucks, as was the artillery. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/55 "2013-05-16T04:02:26Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > The infantry had to march everywhere it went (outside of movement by railroad), supply was almost entirely moved by horse, and the artillery was horse drawn Wow. I knew that Germany used horses, but I had no idea they numbered more than a million. In Russia, most must have ended up as the main course. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/56 "2013-05-16T04:36:14Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > I just had a thought. The Germans were by this time used to attacks from ridiculously huge numbers of Russians, dozens of divisions at a time. Perhaps they simply couldn’t believe that all the Allies could manage on D-day were 5 land and 3 para divisions as their main effort? It had to be a diversion? > [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > I think Germany honestly didn’t comprehend how many men the US and the USSR had to throw at them. That’s kinda the opposite of my point. Given the men the US had available, (comparable to the USSR), the Germans may have expected an invasion of 10 or 20 divisions, not the 5 that arrived. Leading to the assumption that this must have been a feint, not the real thing, leading to them holding back the panzers to deal with the real invasion that was surely coming at the Pas de Calais. That is, the Germans may have **over** -estimated the men the US had available for this purpose, not under-estimated. I just wondered if anyone had any knowledge of the German’s expectations of the invasion size. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/57 "2013-05-16T05:58:12Z")
There are a number of restrictions that apply to amphibious landings, though. For instance, the Allies couldn’t really land their armored divisions until they took a deep water port. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/58 "2013-05-16T08:18:37Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > There are a number of restrictions that apply to amphibious landings, though. For instance, the Allies couldn’t really land their armored divisions until they took a deep water port. Eh? The Allied landed numerous armoured units over the beaches, including on D-Day itself. They didn’t get a functional deep water port until I think Cherbourg, weeks after the landing when it was way behind the front lines anyway. Regardless, my question was not “what stopped the Allies from landing more units on D-Day?”. It is “Did the fact that the Germans were used to facing attacks of dozens of a divisions at a time on the Eastern front contribute to their assumption that the Normandy landings of 5 divisions was a feint?”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/59 "2013-05-16T08:33:18Z")
There was no way the Allies could land more than 5 divisions on the first day; If the Soviets had had to cross a water obstacle the size of the English Channel, they couldn’t have managed a larger beachhead. It would have been physically impossible. The Germans knew this, and they also knew that the whole purpose of the initial landing was to secure a port so that they could bring in the lion’s share of the Allied forces and start the \*actual \*invasion. Normandy was the largest amphibious landing in history, by several orders of magnitude. The Germans could not have mistaken it for a feint. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/60 "2013-05-16T12:41:38Z")
> [@bump](#): > > There’s very little mention of Saipan, Peleliu, Tarawa, Cape Gloucester, Burma, the Phillipines, the Aleutians, Coral Sea, Truk, Leyte Gulf/Samar etc… Or, y’know, China, aka Japan’s Russia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250.md?page=4)