# Cracked on UK and US forces at Normandy **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 13, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250 "2013-05-13T18:25:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/61 "2013-05-16T12:48:25Z")
Russia? At best, the Chinese were the Allies’ Italians. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/62 "2013-05-16T13:31:49Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Wow. I knew that Germany used horses, but I had no idea they numbered more than a million. In Russia, most must have ended up as the main course. [Don’t be too sure.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalry_corps_%28Red_Army%29) ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/63 "2013-05-17T01:28:59Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Normandy was the largest amphibious landing in history, by several orders of magnitude. That’s false too. Operation Husky in Sicily landed 8 divisions on the first day. One order of magnitude is 10x, so you’re asserting the next largest landing was half a division or smaller. \*Several \*OoM, well, that’s just silly. > [@](#): > > The Germans could not have mistaken it for a feint. The Germans DID think Overlord was a feint (by which I mean a diversion) which is why they held several divisions back near Calais for the “real” landings. This is a matter of historical record. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/64 "2013-05-17T02:12:42Z")
The role of double agents in Overlord is particularly interesting; [Joan Pujol Garcia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Pujol_Garcia#Operation_Fortitude) was particularly convincing to the Germans that Normandy was a feint and that the Pas de Calais was the real target (he won the Iron Cross from the Germans and an MBE from the British). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/65 "2013-05-17T03:37:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Russia? At best, the Chinese were the Allies’ Italians. Who nevertheless bagged themselves over half the Japanese in the theatre, suffered over half the military casualties (though that means less, admittedly) and something like 90% of the civilian ones. Had China capitulated, that’s at the very least two million Japanese soldiers not\_dead and not\_wounded in all the fighting and partisan hunting in mainland China, plus a large portion of the rest of the fighting contingent free to redeploy or even simply strengthen logistical lines. Would have changed quite a bit in the other Allies’ progress everywhere else, one would think. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/66 "2013-05-17T03:50:09Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > The role of double agents in Overlord is particularly interesting; [Joan Pujol Garcia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Pujol_Garcia#Operation_Fortitude) was particularly convincing to the Germans that Normandy was a feint and that the Pas de Calais was the real target (he won the Iron Cross from the Germans and an MBE from the British). Holy crap, that guy was incredible. Thanks for the link. I feel very, very small now. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/67 "2013-05-17T06:03:18Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > I dunno. Maybe most of us Yanks think D-Day was, primarily, an American invasion? We did take the brunt of the causalities and most film I’ve seen shows Americans. I’ve wondered if the docos only show the American landing because that was the one they got production funds for or, Only show the American landing because that was the one that went so badly. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/68 "2013-05-17T06:42:19Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Or, y’know, China, aka Japan’s Russia. Comparing China’s role to Russia doesn’t really hold up. While occupying the conquered parts of China did tie down Japanese forces, and the war with China started in 1937 was the ultimate cause of Japan’s attack as a result of the US embargo of oil due to the war, China was a very quiet front from 1941-45. The only major operation carried out by the Japanese in China during these years was [Operation Ichi-Go](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ichi-Go) in 1944 which was launched in order to deny the use of airbases in China which the US was using to bomb Japan with B-29s. In comparison, there was nothing quiet about the Eastern Front from 1941-45. It didn’t merely tie down German forces the way China tied down Japanese forces, it was where Germany bled out during the war. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/69 "2013-05-17T09:02:44Z")
> [@moriah](#): > > I’m shocked at the transport of what seems to be a child’s bike. Bikes have a surprising transport value in warfare, particularly during WWII. The Japanese invasion of Malaya (and Singapore) was so successful partly because the Japanese soldiers were using bicycles, which had the advantage of being light, easy to transport, not needing any fuel or food, and being quieter than trucks. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/70 "2013-05-17T12:31:07Z")
Bicycles were also big in the Netherlands. During the German invasion, Queen Wilhelmina was evacuated to England, some of the patrols protecting her moved by bicycle. Nazi motorcycle patrols did NOT interfere, despite how unutterably cool it would have been to have a running fight between Dutch bicycle troops and Nazi motorcycle scouts in sidecars with the Queen as the football. Quentin Tarantino, are you reading? ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/71 "2013-05-17T17:26:54Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Bikes have a surprising transport value in warfare, particularly during WWII. The Japanese invasion of Malaya (and Singapore) was so successful partly because the Japanese soldiers were using bicycles, which had the advantage of being light, easy to transport, not needing any fuel or food, and being quieter than trucks. My concern was the size of the bike. Seemed rather smallish. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/72 "2013-05-17T18:35:20Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > The Nazi numbers are a lot more surprising then the Allied ones. Only 10,000 vs 150,000 for the Allies. > > Also I think movies give a somewhat skewed vision of D-Day by focusing on Omaha beach where casulties were really high. I remember looking up casualties for all the landings and being surprised by how low they were. The Canadians did not have an easy go of it on Juno, but not as bad as Omaha, and the other beaches were poorly defended. The American experience at Utah was memorably horrific, and so it’s more remembered. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/73 "2013-05-17T19:12:47Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The Canadians did not have an easy go of it on Juno, but not as bad as Omaha, and the other beaches were poorly defended. > > The American experience at Utah was memorably horrific, and so it’s more remembered. Also, of course, most war movies are American and as a natural consequence will choose battles in which American soldiers were mainly involved. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/74 "2013-05-17T19:14:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The Canadians did not have an easy go of it on Juno, but not as bad as Omaha, and the other beaches were poorly defended. > > The American experience at Utah was memorably horrific, and so it’s more remembered. Do you mean “Omaha was memorably horrific?” [Utah had only about 200 casualties](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Beach) out of 32,000 people landed. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/75 "2013-05-17T22:54:25Z")
> [@moriah](#): > > I’m shocked at the transport of what seems to be a child’s bike. If you mean the one being carried by two men in the middle of the picture, I think that’s actually a motorbike. It looks like a [Welbike,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welbike) which was designed to be dropped by parachute, though obviously its small size made it a handy thing to manhandle off landing craft, as well. There does seem to be a bicycle being unloaded in the background, which is probably a [BSA airborne folding bicycle,](http://oldbike.wordpress.com/1939-1945-ww2-bsa-airborne-folding-paratroopers-bike/) but that’s a more normal size. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/76 "2013-05-19T02:02:47Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Bicycles were also big in the Netherlands. During the German invasion, Queen Wilhelmina was evacuated to England, some of the patrols protecting her moved by bicycle. > > Nazi motorcycle patrols did NOT interfere, despite how unutterably cool it would have been to have a running fight between Dutch bicycle troops and Nazi motorcycle scouts in sidecars with the Queen as the football. Quentin Tarantino, are you reading? That was a scenario for Squad Leader in Crescendo of Doom, wasn’t it? Oh crap, now I’ve gone and outed myself. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/77 "2013-05-20T19:13:37Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Holy crap, that guy was incredible. Thanks for the link. I feel very, very small now. Pujol was amazing. My favorite bit was how he was awarded the Iron Cross (second class) by the Germans and an MBE from the British. They HAVE to make a movie about this. I’ve done a lot of work on the article, and really want to get it to Featured Article status. I’m held back by just how painful it is to edit Family Trees. Are there any better tools? Right now, it’s more difficult than doing CSS layout with only Notepad available. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/78 "2013-05-22T16:25:50Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > Eh? The Allied landed numerous armoured units over the beaches, including on D-Day itself. I think they dumped in about ten tank batallions total on D-day - I can never get the TOE straight with all the various armoured infantry and different tank types and whatnot but seem to remember that was about half an armoured division’s worth of tanks. One point that’s worth mentioning is that the Germans had to factor in at least two concerns on the western front: [ol] [li]US/commonwealth forces were going to be far more mobile and better equipped than the soviets[/li][li]western europe was a far more connected battlefield with much better infrastructure[/li][/ol] Raw numbers notwithstanding, the russians weren’t going to blitzkrieg their way into Germany’s industrial heartland in a few weeks - whereas the Germans had done the exact reverse of the French coast to the Ruhr trip four years previously and it took them just six weeks. Their nightmare scenario was an immediate armoured breakout and defensive collapse with the western allies reaching the Rhine by late summer. Needless to say that never happened for a number of reasons but it’s not like the Germans could afford to regard the west as a sideshow. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/79 "2013-05-22T17:51:28Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > That was a scenario for Squad Leader in Crescendo of Doom, wasn’t it? > > Oh crap, now I’ve gone and outed myself. Heh. Yeah, that’s where I learned about it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250/80 "2013-05-22T18:00:33Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Also, of course, most war movies are American and as a natural consequence will choose battles in which American soldiers were mainly involved. This is true, but sometimes they just [rewrite history to exclude any pesky foreign protagonists](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-571_(film)#Historical_events). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cracked-on-uk-and-us-forces-at-normandy/658250.md?page=5)