Crackpipe Ray Nagin Lambastes Fed Govt.-NOLA Still A Mess!

[Sarahfeena]

@The King of Soup

Sarahfeena, if your worldview is such that calling a prominent black American politician by the nickname “crackpipe,” with no evidence whatever that he has ever had any illicit relationship with the drug, is justified by the possibility that some rich white person somewhere might be similarly (though namelessly and implausibly) smeared, then you win. There’s no argument or fact that can penetrate your wall of ignorance. Your simple question has a complicated answer: treating people exactly the same way can sometimes result in very different outcomes.

Actually, I wouldn’t call anyone “crackpipe,” as it really isn’t my style. And I agree that treating people the same way can sometimes result in different outcomes. My only argument is that I do not believe that it is NECESSARILY a racial statement. That’s all. Sorry if you think that is ignorant, but IMO, making rash assumptions about intentions in a case like this is pretty ignorant as well.

But let’s cut across. Your argument seems to be that if calling Ted Kennedy “You filthy nigger” isn’t racist (because it’s just absurd), then it’s okay to yell the same phrase at Barak Obama. I say calling Ray Nagin “‘Crackpipe’ Ray Nagin” is wrong not only because it’s a lie, but also because it plays into and reinforces stupid but common prejudices against black Americans. You’re willing to countenance the lie to protect the prejudice: I’m not willing to accept either.

Calling anyone a “filthy nigger” is racist, because nigger is a racist term. I don’t believe that accusing someone of smoking crack is racist. This analogy doesn’t hold water to me.

Try this: tell me why making a personal, false accusation against your adversary is justified in the absence of racist motives, and *then * we can talk about why bigotry against various groups makes it okay.

I don’t understand this statement. First of all, I don’t think that anyone was really trying to say that Nagin is on the pipe. Second of all, I don’t think it had anything to do with his race. I have heard this said many times about white people, as other posters have also said, and I thought it was interesting that there was an example in another pit thread going on at the same time.

[Dead_Badger]

@The King of Soup

But let’s cut across. Your argument seems to be that if calling Ted Kennedy “You filthy nigger” isn’t racist (because it’s just absurd), then it’s okay to yell the same phrase at Barak Obama.

This is absolute nonsense. Sarahfeena is questioning whether “crackpipe” as an insult has any racial connotations in the first place; you are comparing its use with an insult with utterly established, indelible racial meaning. In the former case, it’s perfectly reasonable to point out that the insult (or similar) has been used in an equal opportunity fashion, since it goes some way to disproving that there are racial motives involved.

You are begging the question by comparing “crackpipe” to the n-word, since you haven’t even remotely demonstrated there is any sort of equivalence. Even your own example disproves your point, since no-one would ever use the n-word to refer to Ted Kennedy, whereas one can quite reasonably imagine someone rhetorically asking, “is Ted Kennedy smoking crack?” in response to a stupid action of his.

[The_Swan]

@The King of Soup

But let’s cut across. Your argument seems to be that if calling Ted Kennedy “You filthy nigger” isn’t racist (because it’s just absurd), then it’s okay to yell the same phrase at Barak Obama. I say calling Ray Nagin “‘Crackpipe’ Ray Nagin” is wrong not only because it’s a lie, but also because it plays into and reinforces stupid but common prejudices against black Americans. You’re willing to countenance the lie to protect the prejudice: I’m not willing to accept either.

How is calling someone “crackpipe” a lie?

Is “shit-for-brains” a lie? “Dunderhead”? (Please note that I do NOT think you are either.)

[crowmanyclouds]

@buttonjockey308

…The people who stayed when they should have left, and were blessed with the ability to walk and didn’t.

They failed…

Where were they supposed to go exactly? Where the fuck were they supposed to walk to?
Maybe you forget how big Katrina was? Yeah, out walk a storm the size of the gulf of Mexico :rolleyes:.

Oh yeah, what did happen to some of the people who tried to walk out?

CMC fnord!

[Sarahfeena]

@Dead Badger

This is absolute nonsense. Sarahfeena is questioning whether “crackpipe” as an insult has any racial connotations in the first place; you are comparing its use with an insult with utterly established, indelible racial meaning. In the former case, it’s perfectly reasonable to point out that the insult (or similar) has been used in an equal opportunity fashion, since it goes some way to disproving that there are racial motives involved.

You are begging the question by comparing “crackpipe” to the n-word, since you haven’t even remotely demonstrated there is any sort of equivalence. Even your own example disproves your point, since no-one would ever use the n-word to refer to Ted Kennedy, whereas one can quite reasonably imagine someone rhetorically asking, “is Ted Kennedy smoking crack?” in response to a stupid action of his.

Thank you Dead Badger. I didn’t have time to write an in-depth response before, and now I don’t have to because you said it all for me.

I abhor racist terms and I would never defend someone using one. I strongly dispute, however, that “crackpipe” is inherently a racist term.

[magellan01]

@The King of Soup

I say calling Ray Nagin “‘Crackpipe’ Ray Nagin” is wrong not only because it’s a lie,…

Forget the idiocy of calling it a “lie”, how do you know it’s even wrong? Strictly as evidenced by his behavior I strongly suspect he’s inhaling the rock. And that’s giving him the benefit of the doubt. Because if he ain’t hittin’ the pipe he’s just either an out and out shithead or he has a mental disease. And I think our elected officials deserve the benefit of the doubt before we hurl accusations of mental disease their way. If you have strong evidence that he is either mentally deficient, or a shithead, or NOT smoking crack, I am more than willing to adjust my impression of said crackhead mayor.

[elucidator]

Aw, c’mon! Bush, Cheney, Rummy et. al. are unanimous blithering idiots, and they don’t even smoke weed!

[you_with_the_face]

Frankly, I don’t get the outrage.

So he said NY has a hole in the ground. How is that a crackheadish statement? Last time I checked, NY does have a hole in the ground. If pointing out the obvious makes one a crack fiend, then I want some rock, too.

Where he went wrong was in trying to compare apples to oranges, while trying to make himself look good by putting down NY. Bad move, man. Try again.

But I’m not getting all the crazy, crackpipishness insinuations. Can someone clue me into why this guy is such the scum of the Earth?

[Miller]

@The King of Soup

But let’s cut across. Your argument seems to be that if calling Ted Kennedy “You filthy nigger” isn’t racist (because it’s just absurd), then it’s okay to yell the same phrase at Barak Obama.

No, calling Ted Kennedy a “filthy nigger” would still be racist. “Nigger” itself is racist. Further, calling Kennedy a nigger, isn’t absurd at all: it’s clearly a metaphor: calling Kennedy a nigger is saying that he has the negative traits racists routinely attribute to black people. If I heard someone say that in real life, I’d assume they were a racist who thinks that Ted Kennedy is lazy, dumb, and prone to crime.

I say calling Ray Nagin “‘Crackpipe’ Ray Nagin” is wrong not only because it’s a lie, but also because it plays into and reinforces stupid but common prejudices against black Americans. You’re willing to countenance the lie to protect the prejudice: I’m not willing to accept either.

Okay, first. A lie? You have got to be kidding. Do you think the OP intended anyone to take that as an accusation that Nagin actually smokes crack? It’s an insult. If I call you retarded, I’m not making a medical diagnosis. I’m making fun of you. Secondly, the only people in this thread reinforicing negative stereotypes about black people are you and the others insisting that “crackpipe” is a racist term. No one else in this thread has made the “crack = black” correlation. That’s all on you guys.

Try this: tell me why making a personal, false accusation against your adversary is justified in the absence of racist motives, and *then * we can talk about why bigotry against various groups makes it okay.

Because it’s the pit, dipshit.

[elucidator]

Dipshit-Americans prefer to be called “Republicans”.

[bump]

@Miller

Which taxpayers do you think should be paying, then? French? Australian? Nigerian?

Louisiana. They’re the ones that pretty much dropped the ball on preparedness and handling of the disaster.

[Miller]

@bump

Louisiana. They’re the ones that pretty much dropped the ball on preparedness and handling of the disaster.

Louisianas aren’t Americans now?

[The_King_of_Soup]

Sarahfeena says that if there’s any possible construction of a statement that is race-neutral, that’s how we should see it. Actually, that’s a defensible philosophy – don’t take offense at anything if you can help it – and in some ways it’s an admirable one. I just think it gives too much leeway for offensive conduct to people who will cheerfully abuse others’ tolerance. Casuistry isn’t my favorite mental exercise to begin with, and I’m not inclined to employ it to camoflage bigotry. But Sarahfeena’s choice, applied consistently, is also a principled one.

As for the other arguments…

1) The appellation “Crackpipe” does not imply crack use. Um, horseshit. In fact, worse than horseshit. Crawling out on this limb merely underscores the slur: “When I say ‘shithead,’ shithead, I really mean ‘fragrant blossom,’ okay, shithead?”

2) Crack accusations are race-neutral. The hell they are. Use of the drug may be color-blind, but the stereotypes surrounding it sure aren’t. Blacks are and have been blamed not just dispropotionately but almost exclusively for the crack problem. According to Human Rights Watch: “Although crack was the least used of all illicit drugs in the U.S., and although more whites used illicit drugs than blacks (…), the ‘war on drugs’ has been targeted most notoriously at the possession and sale of crack cocaine by blacks. Crack cocaine in black neighborhoods became a lightning rod for a complicated and deep-rooted set of racial, class, political, social, and moral dynamics. To the extent that the white majority in the U.S. identified both crime and drugs with the ‘dangerous classes’ – i.e., poor urban blacks – it was easier to endorse, or at least acquiesce in, punitive penal policies that might have been rejected if members of their own families and communities were being sent to prison at comparable rates.” (From here: United States - Punishment and Prejudice: Racial Disparities in the War on Drugs. ) Harvard’s Nieman Foundation notes “Despite the fact that two-thirds of regular crack cocaine users are white or Latino, 80% of persons sentenced in the federal system are African American.” (From here: Time to change cocaine sentencing minimums?)

Allegations of crack use play to a specific, widespread negative stereotype of black people. And that’s why it is not the same insult when directed against Ray Nagin that it is when used against, say, Billy Graham. “Nigger” may be an inherently racist term, but that’s because it is not and never has been applied evenhandedly to everyone as a generic insult, not because it has the same impact on everyone regardless of race. If it did, it wouldn’t be very racist, would it? Using it on whites does not sanitize it and make it okay to direct it at blacks. Same with “crackpipe:” it’s relatively harmless applied to rich white men. Directed against blacks, it exploits and reinforces a racially-charged myth that is extremely damaging.

3) If I can imagine that Nagin uses crack, then it’s not a lie at all! Thank you, magellan01, for treating us to the comedy of your words and the tragedy of your thoughts.

4) It’s just name-calling. No it isn’t. First, if I say someone is an asshole, it can’t be taken literally – no one is going to think my target is actually an anus. If I say someone is stupid, that’s an unspecific opinion, and will be taken as such. If I say someone uses crack, that’s an allegation of illegal behavior, and I’d better be able to prove it. Second, not all insults feed a false and harmful stereotype that affects an entire minority group. Calling a prominent black man a crack-user does.

[Miller]

@The King of Soup

Sarahfeena says that if there’s any possible construction of a statement that is race-neutral, that’s how we should see it. Actually, that’s a defensible philosophy – don’t take offense at anything if you can help it – and in some ways it’s an admirable one. I just think it gives too much leeway for offensive conduct to people who will cheerfully abuse others’ tolerance. Casuistry isn’t my favorite mental exercise to begin with, and I’m not inclined to employ it to camoflage bigotry. But Sarahfeena’s choice, applied consistently, is also a principled one.

So your argument is that, in order to protect tolerance, we must show no tolerance?

1) The appellation “Crackpipe” does not imply crack use. Um, horseshit. In fact, worse than horseshit. Crawling out on this limb merely underscores the slur: “When I say ‘shithead,’ shithead, I really mean ‘fragrant blossom,’ okay, shithead?”

Has anyone in this thread made this argument? Of course it implies crack use. Where you’ve gone off the rails is in insisting that it’s an accusation meant to be taken seriously, and not an obvious hyperbolic flourish, and a common one at that.

2) Crack accusations are race-neutral. The hell they are. Use of the drug may be color-blind, but the stereotypes surrounding it sure aren’t. Blacks are and have been blamed not just dispropotionately but almost exclusively for the crack problem. According to Human Rights Watch: “Although crack was the least used of all illicit drugs in the U.S., and although more whites used illicit drugs than blacks (…), the ‘war on drugs’ has been targeted most notoriously at the possession and sale of crack cocaine by blacks. Crack cocaine in black neighborhoods became a lightning rod for a complicated and deep-rooted set of racial, class, political, social, and moral dynamics. To the extent that the white majority in the U.S. identified both crime and drugs with the ‘dangerous classes’ – i.e., poor urban blacks – it was easier to endorse, or at least acquiesce in, punitive penal policies that might have been rejected if members of their own families and communities were being sent to prison at comparable rates.” (From here: United States - Punishment and Prejudice: Racial Disparities in the War on Drugs. ) Harvard’s Nieman Foundation notes “Despite the fact that two-thirds of regular crack cocaine users are white or Latino, 80% of persons sentenced in the federal system are African American.” (From here: Time to change cocaine sentencing minimums?)

Yeah, the war on drugs is racist. This is not news. This also has nothing to do with this thread.

Allegations of crack use play to a specific, widespread negative stereotype of black people. And that’s why it is not the same insult when directed against Ray Nagin that it is when used against, say, Billy Graham. “Nigger” may be an inherently racist term, but that’s because it is not and never has been applied evenhandedly to everyone as a generic insult, not because it has the same impact on everyone regardless of race. If it did, it wouldn’t be very racist, would it? Using it on whites does not sanitize it and make it okay to direct it at blacks. Same with “crackpipe:” it’s relatively harmless applied to rich white men. Directed against blacks, it exploits and reinforces a racially-charged myth that is extremely damaging.

There’s a specific, widespread negative stereotype that says blacks are lazy and shiftless. Is it therefore automatically racist to call a specific black person lazy?

Comparing “crackpipe” to “nigger” is incredibly stupid. Nigger is an explicitly racist term because that’s the definition of the word. Even when used against white people! The definition of the word “crackpipe” is “a pipe you smoke crack out of.” It’s not, “a pipe you smoke crack out of and incidentally black people suck.” There is no non-racist way to use the word “nigger.” There is a non-racist way to use the word “crackpipe.” What does this tell us? That the word “crackpipe” is not racist!

3) If I can imagine that Nagin uses crack, then it’s not a lie at all! Thank you, magellan01, for treating us to the comedy of your words and the tragedy of your thoughts.

A grossly inaccurate summation of magellan’s post.

4) It’s just name-calling. No it isn’t. First, if I say someone is an asshole, it can’t be taken literally – no one is going to think my target is actually an anus. If I say someone is stupid, that’s an unspecific opinion, and will be taken as such. If I say someone uses crack, that’s an allegation of illegal behavior, and I’d better be able to prove it. Second, not all insults feed a false and harmful stereotype that affects an entire minority group. Calling a prominent black man a crack-user does.

Similarly, no one reading this thread title is going to think, “Oh my God, Ray Nagin is on crack?” You are so incredibly off base here it’s kind of worrying, because up until this thread, I’ve thought of you as one of the smarter posters on this board. But your entire line of argument in this thread has been so incredibly stupid, I have to ask: Soup, are you high right now?

[Contrapuntal]

If by ‘get a hole in the ground fixed’ Nagin meant ‘rebuild the World Trade Center,’ then no, mission unaccomplished. Hardly seems a fair comparison to towing away abandoned cars, however. If he meant ‘fix the hole so there can be new construction’ then, it’s done. The hole is fixed.

[Cartooniverse]

@The King of Soup

Second, not all insults feed a false and harmful stereotype that affects an entire minority group. Calling a prominent black man a crack-user does.

I agree with your entire post. Having quoted this final thought of yours, let me ask you this.

This same noble American Mayor insisted that New Orleans would be a Chocolate City once again.

Please explain to all of us exactly how this is not racist, narrowminded and blatantly exclusionary. Furthermore, explain to us how any white or non-African-American man could have gotten away with saying that on national television.

Unlike the crackpipe comment made by some Dopers, this is an easily verified quote made by the good Mayor on t.v. and in front of print and electronic media. You can hardly proclaim angrily that I’m making it up, nor demand that I show cite. I mean, I’ll be glad to prove it but I suspect that it’s a tough argument to make that he never made those incredulous comments.

So.

1. Why would anyone NOT regard him as a hateful racist, if all he wants it to have New Orleans return as a Chocolate City?

2. What happens to anyone else who dares use that phrase?

[you_with_the_face]

@Cartooniverse

This same noble American Mayor insisted that New Orleans would be a Chocolate City once again.

Please explain to all of us exactly how this is not racist, narrowminded and blatantly exclusionary. Furthermore, explain to us how any white or non-African-American man could have gotten away with saying that on national television.

Why are you asking Soup to defend Nagin’s Chocolate City statement? He takes issue with the man being called a crackhead/crackpipe. He doesn’t appear to be an apologist for all things Nagin, so where the hell is this demand coming from?

1. Why would anyone NOT regard him as a hateful racist, if all he wants it to have New Orleans return as a Chocolate City?

What is hateful about wanting the re-built city to resemble what it looked like pre-Katrina? Do you dispute that NOLA was a “Chocolate City” before the levees broke? Nagin was talking to bunch of people worried that they’d be priced out of their old neighborhoods. These people are predominately black and poor. He was assuring them the new city would still have a place for them. The way he went about it was not the best (classic case of foot-in-mouth disease, he has), but there was no hate that I could see.

I have a feeling that you don’t know too much about Nagin if you think he’s this rabid racist demagogue. In fact, I think it’s a safe bet to say that you (and other people in this thread) know nothing about the man beyond what’s aired on Fox News.

cite

Ray Nagin won the Mayor’s runoff race with 52.3 percent of the vote (59,460 votes). A janitor’s son from a working-class neighborhood, Nagin is a former cable television executive who had been widely regarded as speaking for the local business class. He has a well-earned reputation for always wanting to dress neat and tidy before he goes out in public and puts his foot in his mouth.

Local political scientists credit the Nagin victory to fear. The African-American community was afraid that the white elites had plans to use eminent domain to prevent the poor from returning and then create an affluent white oasis on the flooded lands of the poor. In the end, they voted for the black even though they didn’t care about him. (His first race netted Nagin 40 % of the black vote and 84% of the white) On the other hand, there were enough whites who did not want to associate themselves with the state-wide Landrieu political machine that they also voted for Nagin. Some political scientists feel that the endorsement of Republican Rob Couhig was the edge.

(bolding mine)

2. What happens to anyone else who dares use that phrase?

Parliment used it back in '75 and guess what? No one gave a damn.

[Sarahfeena]

@The King of Soup

Sarahfeena says that if there’s any possible construction of a statement that is race-neutral, that’s how we should see it. Actually, that’s a defensible philosophy – don’t take offense at anything if you can help it – and in some ways it’s an admirable one. I just think it gives too much leeway for offensive conduct to people who will cheerfully abuse others’ tolerance. Casuistry isn’t my favorite mental exercise to begin with, and I’m not inclined to employ it to camoflage bigotry. But Sarahfeena’s choice, applied consistently, is also a principled one.

I think you are extrapolating a lot from what I actually said. I was simply confused because I hear references to people smoking crack all the time, and it doesn’t seem to have anything to do with race. I just don’t get where your outrage came from. I think that calling someone a racist is a serious charge, and you had better have more evidence than use of the term “crackpipe.”

[lisacurl]

@bump

Louisiana. They’re the ones that pretty much dropped the ball on preparedness and handling of the disaster.

You know what? If it wasn’t for Louisiana producing the lion’s share of oil and gas products for this damned country, you’d be paying $6.00 a gallon for gasoline. Do you think that a refinery can just be thrown together overnight? For generations, this country has located the heavily polluting petroleum industries down here, and Louisiana has not gotten anywhere near its share of the revenues that it generated compared to other states, like say, TEXAS. We’ve paid it forward for decades, so go fuck yourself.

[Cemetery_Savior]

@Miller

Louisianas aren’t Americans now?

Mods, shouldn’t this be moved to Great Debates?

-Cem