# Crafter Man: author of the two most appalling posts I've ever read here. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069 "2012-12-14T22:10:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/101 "2012-12-15T17:52:08Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > I travel fairly regularly, yet never feel the need for a gun. If I had one, I would make use of it every day during my commute. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/102 "2012-12-15T18:29:54Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > There is NOTHING that would persuade me to give up my freedom. I gather you’re voluntarily unemployed, then. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/103 "2012-12-15T18:52:20Z")
I hope he gets ironically shot, that would be hilarious ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/104 "2012-12-15T19:41:23Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I know this is a lost cause. I know that this post was from a while back. It’s just so stupid and reliable in gun threads that I am compelled to try again. > > Gun fucks don’t understand the denominator. (That’s the number on the bottom of a fraction, or a ratio.). Except that they appear to understand it somewhat when it comes to comparing the raw number of handgun homicides in the UK to the US! > > So, I have a new thing I’m trying. You are equating the number of firearms deaths in the US to the number of automobile related deaths. You are comparing the numerators. > > How many cars did you see in use yesterday? I saw thousands. On my way in to work,looking out the window, at lunch, on my way home. Hell, I even used one myself running errands later in the day > > How many firearms did you see in use yesterday? Me, I saw 0. Just like the day before and the day before that. > > That’s the denominator. How risky something is depends on you degree of exposure to the risk.. Your argument makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If you were 10 miles from the nearest road during hunting season, you would see more guns than cars. FURTHERMORE, the vast, vast majority of people who carry guns–whether legally or illegally, it makes no difference–carry them concealed. I can absolutely guarantee you that you have passed within a few yards of a gun on multiple occasions and never knew it. Even in terms of overall numbers, your argument makes no sense. While nobody knows precisely how many guns there are in America, the most common estimate is 270 million. On the other hand, there’s about 255 million vehicles in America. In other words, no matter how you slice the numbers, vehicles cause more deaths than guns do. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/105 "2012-12-15T19:47:19Z")
It isn’t the number of guns any country has that’s the problem, it’s the attitude and culture surrounding them. The ‘guns for personal protection and liberty!’ thing doesn’t exist in Canada. That’s why we have police. But that cycles back to actually trusting our government to not fuck things up enough that we need guns to revolt. Gun violence in Canada is largely gang-related, and if you’re not hanging around the gangs, you don’t need one for personal protection. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/106 "2012-12-15T19:58:12Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Your argument makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If you were 10 miles from the nearest road during hunting season, you would see more guns than cars. > > FURTHERMORE, the vast, vast majority of people who carry guns–whether legally or illegally, it makes no difference–carry them concealed. I can absolutely guarantee you that you have passed within a few yards of a gun on multiple occasions and never knew it. > > Even in terms of overall numbers, your argument makes no sense. While nobody knows precisely how many guns there are in America, the most common estimate is 270 million. On the other hand, there’s about 255 million vehicles in America. In other words, no matter how you slice the numbers, vehicles cause more deaths than guns do. And if I lived at the gun range, I’d see nothing but guns being used. Is the statistic of concern the number of hunters being shot during hunting season? A gun in a safe and a car in a garage are each going to cause zero injuries right? Aren’t we more concerned about how much risk is involved in using these objects? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/107 "2012-12-15T20:03:15Z")
Flyer, are you the guy who heard that most accidents occur within a mile from your home, so you moved? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/108 "2012-12-15T20:10:37Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > If I knew logisticians were going to subject my comments to microanalysis I would have chosen my words more carefully. So to clarify: would I (and only me) be willing to give up my guns in exchange for zero murders in this country? Of course I would. But that’s a hypothetical circumstance. What I am \*not \*willing to trade is more gun control (for everyone) in exchange for less citizen-on-citizen crime. **And this assumes more gun control would reduce crime, which is highly debatable.** Actually, within the context of your hypothetical, that it would reduce gun deaths to zero is a given. Not even remotely debatable. In the real world, sure. You could turn every single gun not owned by the military or law enforcement into daisies and people would still find ways to kill people. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/109 "2012-12-15T20:27:02Z")
Putting a bullet in somebody’s body is actually a kind of logistics. Anyway, my problem with this thread is the all-or-nothingness of it. Give up _all_ guns? If anybody at all is promoting that in the real world, it has to be a tiny minority. Even if we see ‘gun control’ go into effect, I betcha people will still own plenty of guns. What are the limits now? Can I get a 50mm turret-mounted machine gun? If I designed and built a nuclear missile and were in the driveway every Sunday with a hose and a sponge washing it off and basking in my ability to defend myself, wouldn’t the authorities find a way to take it away from me? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/110 "2012-12-15T20:38:57Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > If I knew logisticians were going to subject my comments to microanalysis I would have chosen my words more carefully. It doesn’t take microanalysis to be extremely put off by someone saying they are ok with schoolkids being massacred if they can maintain their current level of gun freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/111 "2012-12-15T20:56:37Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > You could turn every single gun not owned by the military or law enforcement into daisies and people would still find ways to kill people. But not as easily, and not as efficiently, and not as effortlessly. Also (and this might be pertinent in the context of criminal use), not as untraceably. Not talking about linking murders to murder weapons - it’s pretty doable today to match a gun to a bullet, or a knife to a stab wound. However, contact weapons imply contact assaults, which leaves a lot more trace evidence than a shooting. Evidence that in the age of DNA and fingerprint databases can be used to \*determine \*whoever did it in the first place from scratch, as opposed to merely confirming a known suspect did it. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/112 "2012-12-15T21:15:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > March 2010 > > On March 23, 2010, Zheng Minsheng (郑民生) 41, murdered eight children with a knife in an elementary school in Nanping, Fujian province; > > May 2010 > > An attacker named Wu Huanming (吴环明), 48, killed seven children and two adults and injured 11 other persons with a cleaver at a kindergarten in Hanzhong, Shaanxi on May 12, 2010; Those are impressive numbers, but you gotta wonder how they’d do if they had AK-47s. It’s like wondering about Home Run Baker’s numbers if he hadn’t played most of his career before the lively ball; technology and rules changes can really up your game. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/113 "2012-12-15T21:49:35Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > It doesn’t take microanalysis to be extremely put off by someone saying they are ok with schoolkids being massacred if they can maintain their current level of gun freedom. Do you drink? Are you aware that the number of kids killed _every weekend_ by drunk drivers is comparable to the number killed by this maniac? Would you be put off if the government proposed banning alcohol, or requiring every consumer of alcohol to have an alcohol consumer’s license and recurrent safety training, or perhaps a breath interlock in your car that you have to breath into every 10 minutes to prove you’re not drunk? Maybe a limit on how many bottles of wine and liquor you can have in your house? 5, say? I mean, only a sick twisted deranged alcoholic fuck would ever need more than 5 bottles of alcohol. That seems fine to me. I don’t drink, but I think I know what I’m talking about. We should also ban any alcoholic beverage that has more than 5% alcohol by volume. We don’t need these “rapid-fire” alcoholic beverages that just get you drunk faster. 5% alcohol should be all anyone needs to have a good time. Or are you okay with schoolkids being massacred so that you can maintain your current level of alcohol freedom? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/114 "2012-12-15T22:01:03Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Do you drink? Are you aware that the number of kids killed _every weekend_ by drunk drivers is comparable to the number killed by this maniac? > > Would you be put off if the government proposed banning alcohol, or requiring every consumer of alcohol to have an alcohol consumer’s license and recurrent safety training, or perhaps a breath interlock in your car that you have to breath into every 10 minutes to prove you’re not drunk? Maybe a limit on how many bottles of wine and liquor you can have in your house? 5, say? I mean, only a sick twisted deranged alcoholic fuck would ever need more than 5 bottles of alcohol. That seems fine to me. > > Or are you okay with schoolkids being massacred so that you can maintain your current level of alcohol freedom? Statistics lead you astray. In this case, mixing up total deaths over the country with the deaths in a singular incident. The two are not equivalent, nor are people really flustered by the number of deaths totalled by all incidents (be they gun related or car related). What they freak out about is that one guy can kill 25+ people by his lonesome _in one sitting_ if he wants to. I daresay a person will be stopped before they drink and drive through 25 separate people. And if and when they plows through a fricking crowd, you’ll see the same kind of debate over drink driving than you see over gun ownership when one maniac shoots 25 people. Thing is, while I’m sure our gun apologists are already feverishly scouring the web for crowd-plowing incidents (deliberate or not) to prove that “they happen too !”, they just don’t happen as often, or as often in the media at least. Guns are most emphatically not the _reason_ people go on random rampages - but they sure are the most common denominator in them. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/115 "2012-12-15T22:05:41Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Do you drink? Are you aware that the number of kids killed _every weekend_ by drunk drivers is comparable to the number killed by this maniac? Are you talking about worldwide? Because in the US, you’re off by a factor of FIVE. In 2010, 211 children between 0 and 14 died due to drunk driving. [http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired\_driving/impaired-drv\_factsheet.html](http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/impaired-drv_factsheet.html) Where are you getting your stats? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/116 "2012-12-15T22:21:59Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Are you talking about worldwide? Because in the US, you’re off by a factor of FIVE. In 2010, 211 children between 0 and 14 died due to drunk driving. > > [http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired\_driving/impaired-drv\_factsheet.html](http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/impaired-drv_factsheet.html) > > Where are you getting your stats? You’re right, I actually had not found a statistic for the number of children killed by drunk drivers, I had seen how many people in total were killed each year by drunk drivers (10,000), and I assumed that about 10% of these were children. You’re right, I was off by a factor of 5. In any case, the number of people killed each year by drunk drivers (10,000) is vastly greater than the number killed in random gun violence (a few hundred at most). Yet we are not faced with calls for ridiculously overzealous restrictions on alcohol consumption, a purely recreational activity. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/117 "2012-12-15T22:24:30Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Statistics lead you astray. In this case, mixing up total deaths over the country with the deaths in a singular incident. The two are not equivalent, nor are people really flustered by the number of deaths totalled by all incidents (be they gun related or car related). What they freak out about is that one guy can kill 25+ people by his lonesome _in one sitting_ if he wants to. I am not debating that people respond more strongly to the fairly rare mass shootings than to the utterly common and vastly more numerous deaths caused by drunk drivers. I’m saying this is an irrational, emotional response and should not be used to set law and policy. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/118 "2012-12-15T22:35:58Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > In any case, the number of people killed each year by drunk drivers (10,000) is vastly greater than the number killed in random gun violence (a few hundred at most). Yet we are not faced with calls for ridiculously overzealous restrictions on alcohol consumption, a purely recreational activity. ??? Firearm homicides vary around 11 - 12K per year in recent years. What are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/119 "2012-12-15T22:46:28Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > ??? Firearm homicides vary around 11 - 12K per year in recent years. What are you talking about? Random gun violence, i.e. mass shootings. I am not counting the large number of firearms homicides that would still be homicides if firearms were not available (e.g. enraged lovers in domestic violence situations), as well as criminal-on-criminal violence among youths in urban areas, drug wars, etc. If you want to compare total numbers, feel free to use the total number of alcohol-related deaths each year, 100,000 or so. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069/120 "2012-12-15T22:56:42Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Aren’t you the piece of shit who bragged about switching places with your friend and fucking his girlfriend when she thought it was him? Not sure rapist is much better than necrophiliac. Then again, I suspect the probability of you actually getting laid IRL is slim, so I’m more inclined to take the story as a juvenile fantasy. No, it was **Shagnasty** who switched places with a friend and had sex with his girlfriend. Generally, I don’t discuss much about my sex life here. I’ll simply note that I am married and have a child. You’re pretty much of a dumbass, though, so now that I’ve corrected you on a few things, I’ve interacted with you as much as I care to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069.md?page=7)