# Crafter\_Man, I wasn't aware that you had a degree in medicine... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 6, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725 "2003-11-06T17:12:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/1 "2003-11-06T17:12:59Z")
[Where Crafter Man offers his ‘opinion’ as fact.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=221707) When asked what circumstances require an emergency late-term abortion (Partial-birth abortion), in case of the mother’s life and/or health, the esteemed **Crafter\_Man** replied: > [@](#): > > Not to start a debate, but the simplest and most likely answer is none. Pro-abortion activists want “an exception in the law to save the life of the mother” knowing full well it will be used as a loophole. WTF? Since WHEN? We’ve had these debates before, and some of those in the medical profession here on the SDMB have said otherwise. What the fuck is your problem? Do you HONESTLY think a woman will just wake up in her seventh month and say, “Gee, I don’t want to be pregnant anymore!” Are you really so blind when it comes to your beliefs that you refuse to see reality? Get this through your thick little skull, you misogynist piece of shit: No one LIKES abortion. No one does it for shits and giggles. But it’s a complex world out there, and sometimes, SOMETIMES, nature throws up and a late term abortion is the best option for a woman. I’ve talked to women who’ve had to have them, and they’re not happy. These pregnancies are WANTED, and most women are very upset at having to go through this. However, for some strange reason, they actually -gasp!- want to _live_. And maybe if you pulled your head out of your ass once in a while, you’d see that life is not so black and white as you would have it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/2 "2003-11-06T17:22:28Z")
Are you contending that each and every late-term abortion performed in this country was physically, medically necessary to save the life of the mother, **Guin**? ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/3 "2003-11-06T17:28:03Z")
No, life isn’t black and white. Including the fact that _some_ (not all) women who have late term abortions don’t have them for medical reasons. To state, “These pregnancies are WANTED…” is seeing things in black and white, more so than **Crafter Man** ’s comments. On what basis do you get off calling him 'misogysist piece of shit"? If it’s on the basis of the comment you quoted, I just don’t see it. That would mean everyone who is opposed to late term abortions is a misogynist, do you think that is true? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/4 "2003-11-06T17:33:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\*Are you contending that each and every late-term abortion performed in this country was physically, medically necessary to save the life of the mother, **Guin**? \*\* Did I say that? No, I did not. However, it seems **Crafter\_Man** is implying that NONE of them have. I don’t think everyone who is opposed to late-term abortions is a misogynist-far from it! I’m opposed to them myself-_when they are done for the purpose of birth control_. HOWEVER, to say that they are never medically necessary, and that to say so is only an excuse-that’s absolute bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/5 "2003-11-06T17:37:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you really so blind when it comes to your beliefs that you refuse to see reality? I’d say, in short, yes. We really see this a lot, wouldn’t you say? :::couhgALDEBARANcough:::: ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/6 "2003-11-06T17:39:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by autz \* > **To state, “These pregnancies are WANTED…” is seeing things in black and white, more so than Crafter Man’s comments.** Maybe your’re a better mind-reader than I and actually understand what **Guin** was _really_ saying. But I read that to mean “these pregnancies” referred to the women she’s talked to about later-term abortions. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/7 "2003-11-06T17:43:23Z")
Since the mental “well-being” of the mother is considered a “valid health reason”, it is entirely possible for a woman who doesn’t desire a child to find a doctor who will agree that the procedure is necessary for her mental health. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/8 "2003-11-06T17:43:35Z")
From the quote you gave, it seems you’re ragging on **Crafter Man** for assuming the midical exception would be used as a loophole. I assume it would too. That’s human nature. Make a rule, make an excetion, people wil try to get around the rule with by abusing the exception. I don’t see where he’s saying that they are never medically necessary. Just that that exception can be abused. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/9 "2003-11-06T18:00:54Z")
I think we’re in substantial agreement, then. It’s clear that many of these are motivated by legitimate medical concerns, and to suggest otherwise seems wilfully blind. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/10 "2003-11-06T18:02:35Z")
No, that’s not what he said: > [@](#): > > Not to start a debate, but the simplest and most likely answer is none. To the question that what kinds of conditions would make a late-term/PBA medically necessary. In other words, it’s never used to save a woman’s health. I’m sure the loopholes are used already-d’uh. However, I’d imagine that they are the minority. The MAJORITY are already used in emergencies, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/11 "2003-11-06T18:02:35Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t see where he’s saying that they are never medically necessary. Umm…how about here (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > Not to start a debate, but the simplest and most likely answer is **none**. Since the quote was in response to being asked “what circumstances require an emergency late-term abortion (Partial-birth abortion), in case of the mother’s life and/or health”, that sure sounds like saying they are never medically necessary to me. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/12 "2003-11-06T18:09:43Z")
I was actually a tad annoyed in that thread that rather than answering the question, a few posters ( **Crafter\_Man** included) decided to turn it into a debate rather than just answering the question. And yes, I suppose “none” could be a valid answer, if the poster provided a cite of some sort. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/13 "2003-11-06T18:23:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Under what circumtances will a partial birth abortion (dilatation and extraction) save a woman’s life? What medical conditions require this procedure to prevent a woman from dying? > [@](#): > > Not to start a debate, but the simplest and most likely answer is none. Pro-abortion activists want “an exception in the law to save the life of the mother” knowing full well it will be used as a loophole. The first sentance definately looks to me as if he’s saying “There are no circumstances where a partial birth abortion will save a womans life” I’m happy to be corrected if he disagrees. ( **autz** - how did you read it?) The second sentance is technically true imho, but (especially wrt to the first sentance) carries the implication that they want an exception _because_ it will be used as a loophole, which is I suspect how he meant it. FTR, I think some people _do_ want no-questions asked 8-month abortions, but that most people (specifically normal “pro-choice” people) find this worse than even ‘no 8-day abortions’ people. But this’d just cloud the issues. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/14 "2003-11-06T18:40:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > Do you HONESTLY think a woman will just wake up in her seventh month and say, “Gee, I don’t want to be pregnant anymore!” Considering that there are cases of women: - Giving birth in a bathroom, throwing the baby in the garbage, and going out to party - Leaving a newborn baby outside a pizza parlor on a cold night - _insert your own horrifying newborn baby story here_ It wouldn’t exactly surprise me. Let’s have a [cite](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/31/politics/main581296.shtml) for the AMA’s position > [@](#): > > The AMA even states that “except in extraordinary circumstances, maternal health factors which demand termination of the pregnancy can be accommodated without sacrifice of the fetus,” Looks like Crafter\_Man isn’t TOO far off with his assessment. I think this illustrates the point very well. If a late term pregnancy needs to be terminated for the health of the mother, that does not necessarily equal abortion. There are other options out there. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/15 "2003-11-06T18:44:13Z")
What I mean is, most do not change their minds. The cases you cited were of women who simply refused to believe they were pregnant or what have you. However, how many doctors are willing to perform an unnecessary late-term abortion? Besides, I still don’t appreciate his refusal to see reality-there ARE cases where a woman’s life/health IS at stake, goddammit! ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/16 "2003-11-06T18:54:58Z")
**Do you HONESTLY think a woman will just wake up in her seventh month and say, "Gee, I don’t want to be pregnant anymore!"** That’s _exactly_ what my suite mate did in college. Knew she was pregnant, lived in denial till the 7th month and jaunted off to Georgia to have one done. Refer to the other PBA thread (the “could doctors be that evil” one) if you wanna know the whole story. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/17 "2003-11-06T19:09:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SnoopyFan \* > \*\*That’s _exactly_ what my suite mate did in college. Knew she was pregnant, lived in denial till the 7th month \*\* aren’t those really opposites? There are people who are in strong denial of reality (I see it all the time, not relating to pregnancies), which kinda means, that, no, they \*\*don’t \*\* know. Yes, you can say "but they had to have known, they didn’t have a period, they kept throwing up, got bigger " etc etc etc, but if some one is _actually in denial_, no, they don’t ‘know’. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/18 "2003-11-06T19:49:40Z")
Guin, the fact remains that there are women out there who will do unspeakable things to avoid motherhood. I doubt that they would stop at an elective late term abortion. In the cases where a woman’s health is at stake, is an abortion the only acceptable option? The AMA says that there are non-abortion options in all but the most extraordinary circumstances. The reason this is a hot button issue is purely because it is related to abortion. The number of people actually affected (endangered) by this law is very small, those that fit into the AMA’s ‘extraordinary’ group. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/19 "2003-11-06T20:53:22Z")
Ok let me rephrase. She knew. She kept putting off doing something about it because she was freaking out over the fact that she was pregnant with a biracial baby, which wasn’t gonna jive for her. In the 7th month she figured she oughta do something about it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/20 "2003-11-06T21:03:32Z")
OKay, and she was an idiot, **SnoopyFan**. But that’s ONE example of an idiot. Does that mean that the women who had to do it as an emergency don’t exist? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725.md?page=2)