# Crafter\_Man, I wasn't aware that you had a degree in medicine... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 6, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725 "2003-11-06T17:12:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/21 "2003-11-06T21:20:35Z")
> [@](#): > > she was pregnant with a biracial baby, which wasn’t gonna jive for her racist! anyone can jive if they’re taught 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/22 "2003-11-06T21:33:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cheesesteak \* > \*\*Guin, the fact remains that there are women out there who will do unspeakable things to avoid motherhood. I doubt that they would stop at an elective late term abortion. \*\* And so forcing these unspeakable women to have a child is a _GOOD_ thing? Yeeks. I think not. Anyhow, despite how unusual, I still believe there are some cases\* where this procedure could be medically necessary. I’m resistent to the idea that the women in those cases are SOL because the procedure is nasty. (Which I will conceed, it certainly is.) \*Certain cases of hydrocephalus, as I stated in the original thread. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/23 "2003-11-06T22:04:55Z")
Even if he’s saying that no abortions in the last term should be medically necessary (and in truth, that’s my reading of it even when not taken out of context), how again is Crafter\_Man a “misogynist”? I’ve met plenty of women who hold similar, or even more strictly anti-abortion views than he was displaying in that thread. I don’t think I’ve seen evidence of him being a “misogynist” in the threads I’ve seen (and since the two of us are GQ people most of the time, I see a lot of his posts…) ---
**Author:** ![PhiloVance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@PhiloVance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhiloVance)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/24 "2003-11-07T00:20:17Z")
> [@](#): > > she was pregnant with a biracial baby, which wasn’t gonna jive for her > [@](#): > > racist! anyone can jive if they’re taught Thanks Ludovic, for providing a much needed humor break. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/25 "2003-11-07T00:43:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Did I say that? No, I did not. > > However, it seems **Crafter\_Man** is implying that NONE of them have. > > I don’t think everyone who is opposed to late-term abortions is a misogynist-far from it! I’m opposed to them myself-_when they are done for the purpose of birth control_.\*\* Why would this be wrong if abortions for medical purposes are not? I mean, either you’re pro-choice or you’re not. Make up your mind. Is the baby a person or isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/26 "2003-11-07T01:03:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Una Persson \* > > Even if he’s saying that no abortions in the last term should be medically necessary (and in truth, that’s my reading of it even when not taken out of context), how again is Crafter\_Man a “misogynist”? I’ve met plenty of women who hold similar, or even more strictly anti-abortion views than he was displaying in that thread. I don’t think I’ve seen evidence of him being a “misogynist” in the threads I’ve seen (and since the two of us are GQ people most of the time, I see a lot of his posts…) I also would like to know how this equals misogyny. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/27 "2003-11-07T02:56:22Z")
> [@](#): > > **RickJay** : Why would this (late term abortions for the purpose of birth control) be wrong if abortions for medical purposes are not?(Parenthetical explanations added.) That’s a little like asking why should life sentences for stealing hub caps be wrong if life sentences for murder are not. The two are incomparable. Abortions performed for medical purposes affirm the value of the life of little girl fetuses after they are born and grow up and become pregnant themselves. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > (continuing…)I mean, either you’re pro-choice or you’re not. Make up your mind. Is the baby a person or isn’t it? Do you care only about the life of a fetus or a baby? Make up your mind. Is the fetus a person after she is born and grows up or isn’t she? I am pro-choice and anti-abortion. The world is more complex than I thought thirty or forty years ago. At any rate, Crafter Man was in error when he said that there are no circumstances which require an emergency late term abortion. In the cite that cheesteak gives for the AMA’s opinion (which says that there _are_ circumstances – although they are “extraordinary”), the paragraph following that says: > [@](#): > > \*But doctors like Paul Blumenthal say combining the words “never” and “late-term abortions” is risky. Though difficult to foresee and outline, any number of complications can arise during a pregnancy. By outlawing even one option, no matter how rarely used, ethicists believe congress (sic) is treading on dangerous ground. > > “There are situations in which we may have no choice but to provide a procedure that this bill will declare illegal,” Blumenthal said. And that’s pretty much what Crafter Man was pitted for, except he combined the terms “none” and “late-term-abortions.” In so doing, he made a medical call for which he apparently does not have sufficient knowledge. And as opposed as I am to late term abortions, isn’t that the crux of the problem? Should Congress be making medical decisions for which they do not have sufficient knowledge? That’s why there should be exceptions for the health of the mother – _in my opinion._ I do get tired of medical opinions stated as fact here. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/28 "2003-11-07T04:37:05Z")
See the thread [Partial birth abortions rare and medically necessary or elective and not uncommon?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=178964&highlight=abortion) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/29 "2003-11-07T05:18:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoe \* > **Do you care only about the life of a fetus or a baby? Make up your mind. Is the fetus a person after she is born and grows up or isn’t she?** After she’s born, yes. Beforehand, no. My mind on the issue is made up; abortion should be legal, whatever the reason. Defining whether or not abortion should be legal by the _caimed reason_ for the abortion is, IMHO, utterly absurd, a complete moral shortcut. If you want to argue that a fetus is a person beyond a certain number of weeks of pregnancy and therefore should not be aborted, you may be able to convince me. If you’re trying to convince me that the legality of an abortion should be based on WHY the mother wants the abortion, I don’t buy it. Decide whether the fetus is a person or not, or at what point it becomes one. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/30 "2003-11-07T05:41:46Z")
I think I understand what you are saying better now. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/31 "2003-11-07T05:48:14Z")
If you ask me, yes, a fetus is pretty much a person beyond a certain time period (though I don’t know WHICH, medical science does). HOWEVER, in the case of a woman’s life/health being at stake, it’s sort of like self-defense-having the child will KILL her. > [@](#): > > If you’re trying to convince me that the legality of an abortion should be based on WHY the mother wants the abortion, I don’t buy it. I don’t think anyone WANTS an emergency abortion-that’s my point. This isn’t something the woman wants because she doesn’t want to be pregnant anymore-it’s something that has to be done because it’s the safest option. I’d be willing to bet that these are, for the most part, wanted pregnancies. I’m also not saying that the reason she wants an abortion should be included in the law. I’m saying there should always be an option for a medical emergency. I believe **Crafter\_Man** is acting like a misogynist because he apparently believes that a majority of women are so stupid they’d go out and have this procedure done just for kicks. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/32 "2003-11-07T06:04:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\* This isn’t something the woman wants because she doesn’t want to be pregnant anymore-it’s something that has to be done because it’s the safest option. I’d be willing to bet that these are, for the most part, wanted pregnancies. > \*\* With all due respect Guin I think you would lose this bet in a fairly decisive fashion. Historically, in real world terms, according to the doctors that performed them, the vast majority of late term PBAs are not done for reasons of the mother’s physical health or to terminate flawed fetuses, but were basically elective decisions made to terminate the pregnancy. This doesn’t make the exceedingly personal decision to terminate what is in essence a living, nearly born child, any easier, but claiming that, historically, the majority of late term PBAs have been desired babies, and unfortunately “medically necessary” is nonsense. They were primarly desperate, last minute attempts to terminate an undesired pregnancy for personal not medical reasons. ---
**Author:** ![keturah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e95f7d/32.png) [@keturah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keturah)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/33 "2003-11-07T06:34:55Z")
Guin- I would really look into the dental work that you need. You seem to have an abcess from your teeth that has effected your brain and should have it attended to. What you call an abortion at 5-7 months is what most WILLING moms would call a premature baby. I do not understand your argument . If woman is late in a WANTED pregnancy and needs to deliver her child for her health, I cannot imagine that she would rather have it killed than try to see it nurtured. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/34 "2003-11-07T06:35:38Z")
I’m trying to figure out why PBA would be a good option for a woman who “will die if she has the baby” … considering she has to almost completely deliver the baby breech before the PBA can be done. ---
**Author:** ![SanguineSpider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@SanguineSpider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanguineSpider)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/35 "2003-11-07T06:36:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cheesesteak \* > \*\*Considering that there are cases of women: > > - Giving birth in a bathroom, throwing the baby in the garbage, and going out to party > > - Leaving a newborn baby outside a pizza parlor on a cold night > > - _insert your own horrifying newborn baby story here_ > > It wouldn’t exactly surprise me. > > \*\* I hate people sometimes… ☹_sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/36 "2003-11-07T07:49:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astro \* > **Historically, in real world terms, according to the doctors that performed them, the vast majority of late term PBAs are not done for reasons of the mother’s physical health or to terminate flawed fetuses, but were basically elective decisions made to terminate the pregnancy.** Could you please provide a cite for this? I’ve heard contrary positions from doctors. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/37 "2003-11-07T15:14:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cerowyn \* > \*\*Could you please provide a cite for this? I’ve heard contrary positions from doctors. \*\* See the cites below regarding prevalance and necessity. Do you have any cites for these “contrary positions” you indicate, as I really didn’t think this “medical necessity” issue was even much of debate anymore as it has been shown via direct testimony of the PBA service providers that the large majority of PBAs are not “medically necessary” from a physical health perspective. Responding to these facts pro-PBA choice positions have now mostly morphed to freedom of choice arguments, and “god forbid - what if” argument scenarios for the narrow band of situations where it might be medically necessary. Another strategy used prior to the current legislation to certify “medical need” was a fairly prefunctory determination that the procedure was necessary for the mothers _mental_ health. The bottom line is that historically, PBAs have used for the most part, as late term birth control by mostly poor, disadvantaged or desperate women who did not take care of the situation earier for any one of a number of reasons. I’m generally pro-choice, but I’m not a big fan of PBA since it does involve killing, in a fairly gruesome fashion, what is in most cases, a nearly developed and perfectly healthy baby. [Partial-Birth Abortions: A Closer Look](http://www.prolifeinfo.org/pba2.html) [sub] > [@](#): > > * * * > > Aren’t “third trimester” abortions rare? At what stage in pregnancy do partial-birth abortions occur? Are these babies “viable”? > > It appears that the substantial majority of partial-birth abortions are performed late in the second trimester – that is, before the 27-week mark – but usually after 20 weeks (4 1/2 months). There is compelling evidence that the overwhelming majority of these pre-week-27 partial-birth abortions are performed for purely “social” reasons. > > At least one partial-birth abortion specialist, the late Dr. James McMahon, regularly performed the procedure even after 26 weeks-- even into the ninth month. In 1995, Dr. McMahon submitted to the House Judiciary Constitution Subcommittee a graph and explanation that explicitly showed that he aborted healthy (“not flawed”) babies even in the third trimester (after 26 weeks of pregnancy). Dr. McMahon’s own graph showed, for example, that at 29 or 30 weeks, one-fourth of the aborted babies had no “flaw” whatsoever. > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/sub] From the American Medical Association regarding the “health necessity” issue - [H-5.982 Late-Term Pregnancy Termination Techniques.](http://www.ama-assn.org/apps/pf_online/pf_online?f_n=browse&doc=policyfiles/HOD/H-5.982.HTM) > [@](#): > > [sub]The term ‘partial birth abortion’ is not a medical term. The AMA will use the term “intact dilatation and extraction”(or intact D&X) to refer to a specific procedure comprised of the following elements: deliberate dilatation of the cervix, usually over a sequence of days; instrumental or manual conversion of the fetus to a footling breech; breech extraction of the body excepting the head; and partial evacuation of the intracranial contents of the fetus to effect vaginal delivery of a dead but otherwise intact fetus. This procedure is distinct from dilatation and evacuation (D&E) procedures more commonly used to induce abortion after the first trimester. Because ‘partial birth abortion’ is not a medical term it will not be used by the AMA. > > (2) According to the scientific literature, there does not appear to be any identified situation in which intact D&X is the only appropriate procedure to induce abortion, and ethical concerns have been raised about intact D&X. The AMA recommends that the procedure not be used unless alternative procedures pose materially greater risk to the woman. The physician must, however, retain the discretion to make that judgment, acting within standards of good medical practice and in the best interest of the patient. > > (3) The viability of the fetus and the time when viability is achieved may vary with each pregnancy. In the second-trimester when viability may be in question, it is the physician who should determine the viability of a specific fetus, using the latest available diagnostic technology. > > (4) In recognition of the constitutional principles regarding the right to an abortion articulated by the Supreme Court in Roe v. Wade, and in keeping with the science and values of medicine, the AMA recommends that abortions not be performed in the third trimester except in cases of serious fetal anomalies incompatible with life. Although third-trimester abortions can be performed to preserve the life or health of the mother, they are, in fact, generally not necessary for those purposes. Except in extraordinary circumstances, maternal health factors which demand termination of the pregnancy can be accommodated without sacrifice of the fetus, and the near certainty of the independent viability of the fetus argues for ending the pregnancy by appropriate delivery. [/sub] [Partial Birth Abortion](http://www.priestsforlife.org/partialbirth.html) [sub] > [@](#): > > In 1992, Dr. Martin Haskell presented his paper on this procedure at a Risk Management Seminar of the National Abortion Federation. He personally claims to have done over 700 himself (Interview with Dr. Martin Haskell, AMA News, 1993), and points out that some 80% are “purely elective.” In a personal conversation with Fr. Frank Pavone, Dr. Haskell explained that “elective” does not mean that the woman chooses the procedure because of a medical necessity, but rather chooses it because she wants an abortion. He admitted to Fr. Frank that there does not seem to be any medical reason for this procedure. There are in fact absolutely no obstetrical situations encountered in this country which require a partially delivered human fetus to be destroyed to preserve the life or health of the mother (Dr. Pamela Smith, Senate Hearing Record, p.82: Partial Birth Abortion Ban Medical Testimony). [/sub] ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/38 "2003-11-07T15:21:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*If you ask me, yes, a fetus is pretty much a person beyond a certain time period (though I don’t know WHICH, medical science does). \*\* WHAT?! Okay, it’s now conclusive that you’re completely and utterly ignorant about any and all medical issues. Medical science is incapable of determining when a fetus becomes a person without a definition of what a “person” is, and as yet no such definition has been suggested. Idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/39 "2003-11-07T18:40:45Z")
It seems clear to me that Crafter\_Man felt that a “loophole” (a term I don’t like using) would be abused very highly, or perhaps all of the time in his opinion, but I saw nothing to support him showing misogyny or even implying that women would have abortions for “kicks”. And I say this as a generally pro-abortion rights / generally morally opposed to abortion conservative. It’s a volatile issue, and I can understand you being upset at the opposing viewpoint, but let’s not demonize Crafter\_Man for things he hasn’t said or done. I think your main beef is still valid, if he’s actually asserting that there is no medical cause, and that all abortions would be elective ones - thus, in his view, unnecessary and wrong. But it’s not really certain to my reading from what he wrote, and pending a dialogue in this thread I can’t draw that conclusion. Well, it doesn’t matter what I think, as my opinion is just that of One. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725/40 "2003-11-07T19:08:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*I believe **Crafter\_Man** is acting like a misogynist because he apparently believes that a majority of women are so stupid they’d go out and have this procedure done just for kicks. \*\* I believe you are completely full of shit because you, apparently, don’t bother to find out what the hell you are talking about before go off the deep end. In point of fact, **Crafterman** is substantially correct with respect ot partial birth abortions. The following GQ thread which is less contentious and shorter than **Astro’s** GD thread. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=169238&highlight=partial+birth](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=169238&highlight=partial+birth) The key quote is, > [@](#): > > The short answer is no – as you have surmised, unless the fetus is greatly deformed, there are no physical health benefits to the mother from killing the fetus once its head and shoulder have left the vagina. However, “health of the mother” has been stretched to include “mental health”. The consensus in that thread was that, absent extreme hydrocephalus, there are no possible physical health benefits to PBA over regular delivery, _since the fetus has mostly been delivered anyway._ **Crafterman’s** opinion isn’t misogynistic in the least. You owe him an abject and groveling apology. **Zoe** If anything, the quote you provided highlights the case **against** partial birth abortions. > [@](#): > > \*\*But doctors like Paul Blumenthal say combining the words “never” and “late-term abortions” is risky. Though difficult to foresee and outline, any number of complications can arise during a pregnancy. By outlawing even one option, no matter how rarely used, ethicists believe congress (sic) is treading on dangerous ground. \*\* Translation: “I can’t think of single actual medical situations when a partial birth abortion might be necessary to protect the physical health of the mother. But dag nabit, you just never know what might happen. What if one of them alien abductees gits pregnant? The fate of the Earth could be at stake!” Right. Medical procedures and drugs are banned all the time even though they may have some utility in some situtations. Dr. Blumenthal is being extremely disingenuous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter_man-i-wasnt-aware-that-you-had-a-degree-in-medicine/211725.md?page=3)