# Cranick's Folly: Libertarianism at its finest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2010, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104 "2010-10-05T09:02:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/261 "2010-10-06T18:08:01Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > > [@emacknight](#): > > > > And again, ambulances expect 50% of their _customers_ won’t pay. So they charge at least 2x to everyone that will pay. And the only people that can pay are those with insurance. Since there is no system of “fire insurance” it’s pretty safe to say no one is going to pay after the fact. > > > > In this case, it means that the municipal tax payers will have to cover the cost of Mr Cranick’s freedom. > > Mr. Cranick does not live in some sort of Libertania, he may not pay Municipal taxes but he certainly pays state taxes, sales taxes, porperty taxes etc. \*\*I cannot fathoom how the state or county cannot figure out \*\*a way to compensate the nearby municipal fire department so it doesn’t have to work on a subscription basis. The state/county knows exactly how to do it. It’s the residents of Libertania that don’t \*want \*them to. Cranick (and his neighbour) were perfectly fine with the system up it actually mattered. The break down, which is how this always plays out, is when it’s time for a payout. As I said earlier, it’s where libertarianism fails: healthy people think they don’t need health insurance, good drivers think they don’t need auto insurance, home owners don’t think they need fire protection. And it’s not necessarily a problem with Libertarianism, but with the human condition. When faced with the choice Cranick decided he’d rather the $75 now and deal with the potential cost later. This would be fine if he was smart enough to understand risk analysis, and responsible enough to plan for contingencies, and _moral_\* enough to consider the people around him. For some reason, Libertarianism seems to draw the stupid/irresponsible/lazy/selfish like pedophiles to the priesthood. \*\*Rand Rover \*\*was actually sane and reasonable when he said this should have been a non-issue, and Cranick should have gotten some marshmallows. In the end, this is how libertarianism plays out, not because it’s a really stupid idea (which it is), but because it’s bogged down with such stupid practitioners. \*I’m not thrilled with that word choice. ETA I now realize everyone said it better than me, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/262 "2010-10-06T18:10:57Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > …even the stupidest Tea Partier generally recognizes that the government has a public safety role… Your first mistake was dramatically overestimating the stupidest Tea Partier. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/263 "2010-10-06T18:11:25Z")
We seem to be making a lot of assumptions as to why the county fire service situation is what it is. Anyone have any evidence that it was libertarian philosophy or the tea baggers were involved in this some how? Anyone with an understanding of the tax base in the county or the geography? Or are we all just guessing? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/264 "2010-10-06T18:15:41Z")
Billing after the fact is not that big an issue. If they are having trouble collecting, it’s only because they haven’t been more diligent about it themselves. There are many options, including placing a lien on the property. If they need the money right away, they can just sell the debt to someone, or employ an outside collection agency that works on a contingency fee. Really not that difficult. Even if the sell the debt for pennies on the dollar, they will likely make enough to cover the costs. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/265 "2010-10-06T18:16:11Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > We seem to be making a lot of assumptions as to why the county fire service situation is what it is. Anyone have any evidence that it was libertarian philosophy or the tea baggers were involved in this some how? Anyone with an understanding of the tax base in the county or the geography? Or are we all just guessing? It’s quite simple: municipalities can’t force non-municipal residents to pay for municipal levies (which include a functioning municipal fire department). Counties can’t afford to fund, at the county level (at current tax rates), a fire service which adequately protects all non-municipal areas of the county. Tax increases are not popular things, doubly so in republican-heavy areas (which I am like 99.99% sure Obion county is). This isn’t libertarian philosophy as much as it is cold hard facts. The libertarian part comes in when people like Cranick voluntarily choose to not pick up government services and then bitch and moan at the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/266 "2010-10-06T18:17:13Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Billing after the fact is not that big an issue. If they are having trouble collecting, it’s only because they haven’t been more diligent about it themselves. There are many options, including placing a lien on the property. If they need the money right away, they can just sell the debt to someone, or employ an outside collection agency that works on a contingency fee. Really not that difficult. Even if the sell the debt for pennies on the dollar, they will likely make enough to cover the costs. As a municipal taxpayer in South Fulton, TN, I’d rather my fire department not bother with this (and concentrate on fire protection for taxpaying municipal residents). Thanks! (i’m not really a resident of TN) ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/267 "2010-10-06T18:30:52Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > > [@brickbacon](#): > > > > Billing after the fact is not that big an issue. If they are having trouble collecting, it’s only because they haven’t been more diligent about it themselves. There are many options, including placing a lien on the property. If they need the money right away, they can just sell the debt to someone, or employ an outside collection agency that works on a contingency fee. Really not that difficult. Even if the sell the debt for pennies on the dollar, they will likely make enough to cover the costs. > > As a municipal taxpayer in South Fulton, TN, I’d rather my fire department not bother with this (and concentrate on fire protection for taxpaying municipal residents). Thanks! > > (i’m not really a resident of TN) So you rather they waste time and money watching houses burn down? In addition to putting themselves in danger when enraged homeowners assault them. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/268 "2010-10-06T18:32:36Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > So you rather they waste time and money watching houses burn down? In addition to putting themselves in danger when enraged homeowners assault them. We weren’t wasting any time and money - we didn’t respond to Cranick’s call. And, you know what you can’t really protect against another person’s criminal actions. -South Fulton FD ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/269 "2010-10-06T18:35:17Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > And again, ambulances expect 50% of their _customers_ won’t pay. So they charge at least 2x to everyone that will pay. And the only people that can pay are those with insurance. Since there is no system of “fire insurance” it’s pretty safe to say no one is going to pay after the fact. And a lien on their house (the Cranicks did own a house, right?) wouldn’t be effective? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/270 "2010-10-06T18:37:37Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > [@emacknight](#): > > > > And again, ambulances expect 50% of their _customers_ won’t pay. So they charge at least 2x to everyone that will pay. And the only people that can pay are those with insurance. Since there is no system of “fire insurance” it’s pretty safe to say no one is going to pay after the fact. > > And a lien on their house (the Cranicks did own a house, right?) wouldn’t be effective? No. It’s costly, and more importantly you don’t get paid for a long time. What’s a fire department supposed to buy equipment, oxygen tanks, and pay their firemen with, scrip? The natural reply being “well they still get tax revenues”… and the response being “that’s nice that everyone else who is responsible subsidizes the irresponsibility of those who don’t want to pay for service before they know they need it” ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/271 "2010-10-06T18:38:06Z")
[![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRaskxVjkXc) Turns out, the fire was started because the guy was burning trash. I fucking love this, I really do, it’s just so delicious I don’t think I can eat any more. Had he paid for garbage collection like a civilized human being, his house wouldn’t have burned down. Seriously, the last time I saw someone burning garbage I was in rural India. No, not Indiana, India. You know what would be even better, if he fucked up his well trying to put it out himself. And then all the ash/soot runoff fucks up his septic system. That would be a true trifecta of stupid. ---
**Author:** ![hdc\_bst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/9f8e36/32.png) [@hdc\_bst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hdc_bst)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/272 "2010-10-06T18:38:33Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > republican-heavy areas Actually, voter turnout in August indicates the county is 55% Republican. This vote includes municipal and rural voters. [Results here](http://www.obioncountyelection.com/docs/Election%20Results/Current/EL45.HTM). That said, I definitely agree with your general position - there should be a mandatory risk sharing (socialized, gasp) structure. Were I to live in Obion county I would certainly vote to enact it. However, there is not, and Cranick blundered into his circumstances eyes wide open, particularly with the '07 fire in mind. Hmmm… could this be the position of an uncompassionate liberal? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/273 "2010-10-06T18:41:07Z")
> [@hdc\_bst](#): > > Actually, voter turnout in August indicates the county is 55% Republican. This vote includes municipal and rural voters. [Results here](http://www.obioncountyelection.com/docs/Election%20Results/Current/EL45.HTM). It voted 66% for McCain in 08. Primary votes aren’t good at gauging the overall county voter makeup. > [@](#): > > Hmmm… could this be the position of an uncompassionate liberal? yes. but i prefer to call it tough love. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/274 "2010-10-06T18:48:03Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRaskxVjkXc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRaskxVjkXc) > > Turns out, the fire was started because the guy was burning trash. > > I fucking love this, I really do, it’s just so delicious I don’t think I can eat any more. > > Had he paid for garbage collection like a civilized human being, his house wouldn’t have burned down. Seriously, the last time I saw someone burning garbage I was in rural India. No, not Indiana, India. > > You know what would be even better, if he fucked up his well trying to put it out himself. And then all the ash/soot runoff fucks up his septic system. That would be a true trifecta of stupid. Some “facts” from the video: This policy has been in place for about 20 years, it also exists in other near by areas. At least two other fire houses are on record that they won’t respond to non-payers (one house said “maybe”). At least three other houses were allowed to burn, and one other barn with horses. Mr Cranick’s irresponsibility also lead to the death of two dogs and a cat. My general apathy and amusement is slowly switching to outright disgust, that this fat fuck wouldn’t spend $75 a year to make sure this didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/275 "2010-10-06T18:48:37Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > > [@brickbacon](#): > > > > So you rather they waste time and money watching houses burn down? In addition to putting themselves in danger when enraged homeowners assault them. > > We weren’t wasting any time and money - we didn’t respond to Cranick’s call. And, you know what you can’t really protect against another person’s criminal actions. > > -South Fulton FD What exactly are you trying to accomplish by pretending to speak as the SFFD? They are wasting time and money since they in all likelihood they will: 1. Have to respond anyway because other property that is covered may be damaged 2. Have already incurred the larger fixed costs of having a FD available 24/7 to all the tax payers, and paying rural residents. 3. Lose the property tax revenue from the burned home. 4. Have to settle the inevitable lawsuits that would arise if someone died as a result of their unwillingness to respond to a call. 5. Have to likely pay more to the firefighters to assume the risk of being assaulted by home owners. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/276 "2010-10-06T18:50:36Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > I fucking love this, I really do, it’s just so delicious I don’t think I can eat any more. The greatest possible coda to this story is if he has a spaghetti dinner to raise funds for his home rebuilding. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/277 "2010-10-06T18:51:05Z")
Inevitable lawsuits? Will they be suing the FDNY for not responding as well? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/278 "2010-10-06T18:53:35Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > > And a lien on their house (the Cranicks did own a house, right?) wouldn’t be effective? > > No. It’s costly, and more importantly you don’t get paid for a long time. What’s a fire department supposed to buy equipment, oxygen tanks, and pay their firemen with, scrip? That’s why you sell the debt like any company would do in a similar situation. It’s really not the complicated, nor is it expensive. All you would need to do is set the costs such that your retrieval efforts would be paid for. You act as if a million other people haven’t already solved this problem. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/279 "2010-10-06T18:55:01Z")
[quote=“brickbacon, post:275, topic:556104”] > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > We weren’t wasting any time and money - we didn’t respond to Cranick’s call. And, you know what you can’t really protect against another person’s criminal actions. > > -South Fulton FD What exactly are you trying to accomplish by pretending to speak as the SFFD? They are wasting time and money since they in all likelihood they will: > [@](#): > > 1. Have to respond anyway because other property that is covered may be damaged And that’s paid for by the $75 the other guy paid. Going out there to service a paying client isn’t a waste of our money > [@](#): > > 1. Have already incurred the larger fixed costs of having a FD available 24/7 to all the tax payers, and paying rural residents. I have no idea how this has anything to do with wasting money by setting up a debt collection wing of the local FD > [@](#): > > 1. Lose the property tax revenue from the burned home. The municipality doesn’t care about non-municipal tax revenues. > [@](#): > > 1. Have to settle the inevitable lawsuits that would arise if someone died as a result of their unwillingness to respond to a call. Um, they have zero legal liability to respond to a call. Sorry. > [@](#): > > 1. Have to likely pay more to the firefighters to assume the risk of being assaulted by home owners. That’s not a risk that most employees of most agencies ever consider assuming. Claiming a risk premium cost because one jackass in 10 years may flip out and punch out your employees because he doesn’t like your policies is the epitome of making shit up to support a weak argument. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/280 "2010-10-06T18:55:13Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > That’s right, know why? Because Best Buy has a system in place to sell [service], the fire department does not. > > In other words, the fire department is not set up to provide a service on a pay-per-fire basis. It’s unrealistic to expect them to suddenly have a value in mind for Cranick to pay. > > I think by now we’ve all agreed that charging him the $75 is both too cheap, and bad for their business model. > > But then, to calculate what the actual cost is puts them into the position of being extortionists. As far as I can tell, anything other than a subscription service isn’t going to work. I don’t know, I think a mandatory tax-supported Fire Department might just work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104.md?page=15)